No Love from the "Experts"

[NAMEDSONPAYTON2]

Not a copout at all. I was replying to the following statement,

 

I loved Bears football more when we were winning 6-8 games a year in the 70's, 80's, and some of the 90's when we were hurting people on offense, more than winning 8-10 games and giving up 24- 40 points a game.

 

He flat said he liked it better when we were losing due to the teams identity at that time rather than when we were winning with a different identity. My point is, regardless of identity, winning is what matters the most to me.

 

I do agree with you about the OL coach to HC. I too always liked Grimm, and frankly, he was one I wanted over Lovie back in the day.

 

Back to identity, sure, I would love to bring back some of the old school mentality, but to an extent, there are aspects of it I do not necessarily want back. Many talk about the good old days of running the football, but lets be honest for a moment. Go back to even the 80s teams and look at the offense. Payton was awesome to watch, but that offense was far from great. If we didn't have the defense we did, how great would that team have been.

 

Today, how many teams win with that smash mouth running game? Indy, NE, NO and most other winning programs I can think of in recent seasons have been able to attack through the air and score. That doesn't mean you don't run the ball, but I just question if that old bear offense is really what we should be wanting.

I would rather loose the nfc championship game, than going to the superbowl and loose.

[bradjock]

I would rather loose the nfc championship game, than going to the superbowl and loose.

 

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Seriously. The 2006 team making it to the Super Bowl was fantastic. God that was fun. All the hype leading up to the big game and having the country focused on our team.

 

Not to mention getting there. Beating Seattle in overtime. Thumping New Orleans in the NFC championship at Soldier Field. Watching the Halas Trophy presented to Virginia and Urlacher as the snow was coming down. Amazing.

 

Yes, losing the Super Bowl sucked. But you'd rather have just lost to New Orleans? That's retarded.

[Mongo3451]

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Seriously. The 2006 team making it to the Super Bowl was fantastic. God that was fun. All the hype leading up to the big game and having the country focused on our team.

 

Not to mention getting there. Beating Seattle in overtime. Thumping New Orleans in the NFC championship at Soldier Field. Watching the Halas Trophy presented to Virginia and Urlacher as the snow was coming down. Amazing.

 

Yes, losing the Super Bowl sucked. But you'd rather have just lost to New Orleans? That's retarded.

Agreed. Damn.

[madlithuanian]

nfo, you hit the nail square on the head!

 

 

 

No argument.

 

I have always said, go back and look at Lovie when he was the DC in Stl. He earned a reputation for having Ds that could create a ton of turnovers, but at the same time, they also gave up a lot of points and were really not that good. Much of his success was due to having an offense that forced teams to be one dimensional. In Chicago, I thought we were better with Rivera, but even then, felt Lovie held the team back.

 

I will always go back to the Az game some years ago as my example. In the first half, a rookie QB was tearing us apart as we ran a very Lovie style scheme. We were not aggressive, played off WRs and pretty much gave until we broke. In the 2nd half, from everything I read, Rivera simply took over, and the difference in the team was very obvious. Our CBs were playing on top of the LOS. We were blitzing from just about every angle. We had that "Remember the Titans" mentality of "if they gain a yard, everyone will be benched" and the result was Az being totally stopped.

 

Unfortunately, that was only a 1/2 of one game where I saw the potential of our defense. After that, it was back to bend - pray you don't break.

 

[NAMEDSONPAYTON2]

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Seriously. The 2006 team making it to the Super Bowl was fantastic. God that was fun. All the hype leading up to the big game and having the country focused on our team.

 

Not to mention getting there. Beating Seattle in overtime. Thumping New Orleans in the NFC championship at Soldier Field. Watching the Halas Trophy presented to Virginia and Urlacher as the snow was coming down. Amazing.

 

Yes, losing the Super Bowl sucked. But you'd rather have just lost to New Orleans? That's retarded.

Yes, I, me, would rather loose the NFC champ game, than loose in the super bowl. That's why I wrote what you read. I've heard so many players, not fans say that they would rather win ONE Super Bowl over 1,000,000 conference wins, 1,000,000 pro bowls, 1,000,000 records, etc. Are you old enough to know what it feels like to win a super bowl? Are you saying winning the NFC Championship was a higher high than loosing the super bowl was a lower low? You should like the Vikings and Bills, they've won 8 championships and ZERO Superbowls. What a retarted response by you.

[balta1701-A]

Folks...disagreement is OK, but calling each other stupid and retarded pushes the line of the site's rules and is just going to lead to more sniping.

[madlithuanian]

C'mon guys...I think we can argue this w/o the name-calling.

 

 

 

Yes, I, me, would rather loose the NFC champ game, than loose in the super bowl. That's why I wrote what you read. I've heard so many players, not fans say that they would rather win ONE Super Bowl over 1,000,000 conference wins, 1,000,000 pro bowls, 1,000,000 records, etc. Are you old enough to know what it feels like to win a super bowl? Are you saying winning the NFC Championship was a higher high than loosing the super bowl was a lower low? You should like the Vikings and Bills, they've won 8 championships and ZERO Superbowls. What a retarted response by you.

 

[madlithuanian]

Oops, I just respnded the same...I didn't see your comment. Well said...

 

Folks...disagreement is OK, but calling each other stupid and retarded pushes the line of the site's rules and is just going to lead to more sniping.

 

[NAMEDSONPAYTON2]

Folks...disagreement is OK, but calling each other stupid and retarded pushes the line of the site's rules and is just going to lead to more sniping.

I know, I was just stating what I would rather have. It's like saying I would rather beat the vikings twice rather than beating the packers twice and being told that's retarded???????????????????????????????? But I do want to know if they were old enough to feel the feeling when the Bears won the Super Bowl.

[madlithuanian]

It's honestly a silly argument all around because we have no capability of knowing the future, etc.

 

I do agree with you in a sense though. I'd rather have not gone than lost. But, you don't know if you'll lose without going. It's a catch 22 to me. Logically, if I have choice A or B. A being that we go to the SB and lose no matter what. B being we don't go, I'd take B. I'd rather hunger for it and actually win it later. But, that's given that we know in absolute certainty we will lose. But that's me, I don't like the anguish of losing, Going isn't good enough. Only winning is. Anything else is still losing.

 

I know, I was just stating what I would rather have. It's like saying I would rather beat the vikings twice rather than beating the packers twice and being told that's retarded???????????????????????????????? But I do want to know if they were old enough to feel the feeling when the Bears won the Super Bowl.

 

[nfoligno]

Excuse me, but what does a SB win have to do with what you said?

 

I believe you said you would rather lose in the conf championship game then win that one, go to the SB, but lose in the SB.

 

Where in this does it mention winning a SB. Sure, we all would take a SB win over "fill in the blank." But that wasn't part of your comment.

 

So you would rather lose in the conf championship game rather than win that one and lose in the SB.

 

By that logic, would you not rather lose the division game so you then would not have to worry about losing the conf game?

 

Further, if you are not going to win the SB, would you rather simply not make the playoffs at all so as to not get your hopes up?

 

No one is saying they want to win a bunch of conf game w/o ever winning the SB, but the shocking aspect of what you seemed to be saying was that you would rather never even make it to the SB rather than get there and lose. Sometimes you lose a few before you win.

 

Yes, I, me, would rather loose the NFC champ game, than loose in the super bowl. That's why I wrote what you read. I've heard so many players, not fans say that they would rather win ONE Super Bowl over 1,000,000 conference wins, 1,000,000 pro bowls, 1,000,000 records, etc. Are you old enough to know what it feels like to win a super bowl? Are you saying winning the NFC Championship was a higher high than loosing the super bowl was a lower low? You should like the Vikings and Bills, they've won 8 championships and ZERO Superbowls. What a retarted response by you.

 

[nfoligno]

As asked in the other post, what does winning the SB have to do with what you said? From what I can tell, nothing in your either/or involves winning. You simply said you would rather not make it to the SB at all rather than lose.

 

We all want to win, but last I checked, you can't win if you don't show up.

 

By your logic, would you rather simply not make it to the playoffs at all if you are not going to win the SB?

 

And yes, for the record, I am old enough to remember when the Bears won the SB.

 

 

 

I know, I was just stating what I would rather have. It's like saying I would rather beat the vikings twice rather than beating the packers twice and being told that's retarded???????????????????????????????? But I do want to know if they were old enough to feel the feeling when the Bears won the Super Bowl.

 

[nfoligno]

Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.

 

I just don't understand this argument. Winning the SB is the ultimate. No question. At the same time, it is one hell of an accomplishment to get there.

 

If you asked the players from that 2006 team if they wish they never beat NO and didn't even reach the SB (hindsight 20/20) I bet you every one of them would say as sick as they were to have lost, they would never prefer to not make it to that level at all.

 

The logic just doesn't hold because if you follow it, would you rather simply not even make the playoffs if you are not going to win the SB?

 

It's honestly a silly argument all around because we have no capability of knowing the future, etc.

 

I do agree with you in a sense though. I'd rather have not gone than lost. But, you don't know if you'll lose without going. It's a catch 22 to me. Logically, if I have choice A or B. A being that we go to the SB and lose no matter what. B being we don't go, I'd take B. I'd rather hunger for it and actually win it later. But, that's given that we know in absolute certainty we will lose. But that's me, I don't like the anguish of losing, Going isn't good enough. Only winning is. Anything else is still losing.

 

[Mongo3451]

Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.

 

I just don't understand this argument. Winning the SB is the ultimate. No question. At the same time, it is one hell of an accomplishment to get there.

 

If you asked the players from that 2006 team if they wish they never beat NO and didn't even reach the SB (hindsight 20/20) I bet you every one of them would say as sick as they were to have lost, they would never prefer to not make it to that level at all.

 

The logic just doesn't hold because if you follow it, would you rather simply not even make the playoffs if you are not going to win the SB?

And you gotta get there to win it! Ask a player if they would rather go home than lose the game? They would look at us like we were crazy.

[NAMEDSONPAYTON2]

And you gotta get there to win it! Ask a player if they would rather go home than lose the game? They would look at us like we were crazy.

I would rather loose the championship game, than win it and loose in the super Bowl, that's all I was posting. Whats so bad about that, or hard to understand. I would rather be 1-0 in Super Bowls over 1-1 or 1-45. Like we did when we lost to S.F. in 1985, and came back the next year when we were ready to win. 2nd place TO ME is like 3rd or 4th, or 32nd. Now I am not telling people to think the same, I WAS JUST POSTING SOMETHING I WAS FEELING. I want to go to the super Bowl and win, but if i had a crystal ball and knew if we won the Championship game and would loose the super bowl, I DO NOT WANT TO GO. What do the vikings and bills have over us? NOTHING, because they never won it in 8 tries.

[madlithuanian]

 

I preferred our perfect record of 1.0000 in SB's. You can keep 2006. It's a failure to me. It was a fun run, and up until we lost all hope, it was wonderful. But from that point on, it was all for nothing. So to speak... As I do mention, we can't predict such thing, so I would never ever ever not give ourselves the opportunity to win. But if I knew I had to sit and watch us lose, I'm not sure I'd be for that.

 

It was an accomplishment for the Minny teams, the Bills, etc...and as much as I sit and can tell you how wonderful and lovely it must feel for those guys to tackle that tough goal of just gtting there and playing hard, my gut tell me BS! You don't win, and it's just the most vicious loss one could ever endure.

 

Sure all the guys will say they were glad to go...but I don't suit up, I watch as a fan, and I don't like watching us lose. In any game, especially the one one that really matters.

 

The question at hand was would you rather lose the NFC championship or the Super Bowl...and I still would rather lose the championship. I honestly don't believe teams learn from losing the SB. Most that do, then wallow in misery for years after. Whereas teams that lose the NFC championship tend to be in the mix for the next few years and a good chunk go on to win it.

 

And, the question isn't a slippery slope into losing in the regular season, not making the playoffs, etc.. It was A or B... And no, if you throw C in, I want to make the playoffs every year regardless where we lose in them. It shows a sign of being a solid team, and one would hope, the team could learn from mistakes and eventaully win the big one.

 

It's a personal thing. I'm approaching it from a fatalistic and logical approach. The laws of average point that SB losing teams wallow in misery for years more often that conf championship losers. Or at least would appear that way from my years of following the NFL. Or maybe the stigma of losing the SB is just too unpleasant. No one remembers who lost in the conf game, only who lost in the SB. The biggest low, is losing the SB. Because the expectation is there to win. Just my personal thoughts...

 

 

 

Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.

 

I just don't understand this argument. Winning the SB is the ultimate. No question. At the same time, it is one hell of an accomplishment to get there.

 

If you asked the players from that 2006 team if they wish they never beat NO and didn't even reach the SB (hindsight 20/20) I bet you every one of them would say as sick as they were to have lost, they would never prefer to not make it to that level at all.

 

The logic just doesn't hold because if you follow it, would you rather simply not even make the playoffs if you are not going to win the SB?

[Mongo3451]

I would rather loose the championship game, than win it and loose in the super Bowl, that's all I was posting. Whats so bad about that, or hard to understand. I would rather be 1-0 in Super Bowls over 1-1 or 1-45. Like we did when we lost to S.F. in 1985, and came back the next year when we were ready to win. 2nd place TO ME is like 3rd or 4th, or 32nd. Now I am not telling people to think the same, I WAS JUST POSTING SOMETHING I WAS FEELING. I want to go to the super Bowl and win, but if i had a crystal ball and knew if we won the Championship game and would loose the super bowl, I DO NOT WANT TO GO. What do the vikings and bills have over us? NOTHING, because they never won it in 8 tries.

It's just a one in a million thought is all. I want to get it, but just can't. No lost respect, though.

[nfoligno]

So if you are not going to win the SB, tank the whole season. I mean, no point in going to the playoffs if you can't win the SB, right?

 

Sorry, that thought just kills me. Do you think you suddenly become great? No. You often have to work your way up. You get some success, build and that success, and then win it all.

 

 

 

I would rather loose the championship game, than win it and loose in the super Bowl, that's all I was posting. Whats so bad about that, or hard to understand. I would rather be 1-0 in Super Bowls over 1-1 or 1-45. Like we did when we lost to S.F. in 1985, and came back the next year when we were ready to win. 2nd place TO ME is like 3rd or 4th, or 32nd. Now I am not telling people to think the same, I WAS JUST POSTING SOMETHING I WAS FEELING. I want to go to the super Bowl and win, but if i had a crystal ball and knew if we won the Championship game and would loose the super bowl, I DO NOT WANT TO GO. What do the vikings and bills have over us? NOTHING, because they never won it in 8 tries.

 

[nfoligno]

As you said, it is personal for you, and there is little point in arguing it. It just blows my mind to hear this.

 

 

 

I preferred our perfect record of 1.0000 in SB's. You can keep 2006. It's a failure to me. It was a fun run, and up until we lost all hope, it was wonderful. But from that point on, it was all for nothing. So to speak... As I do mention, we can't predict such thing, so I would never ever ever not give ourselves the opportunity to win. But if I knew I had to sit and watch us lose, I'm not sure I'd be for that.

 

It was an accomplishment for the Minny teams, the Bills, etc...and as much as I sit and can tell you how wonderful and lovely it must feel for those guys to tackle that tough goal of just gtting there and playing hard, my gut tell me BS! You don't win, and it's just the most vicious loss one could ever endure.

 

Sure all the guys will say they were glad to go...but I don't suit up, I watch as a fan, and I don't like watching us lose. In any game, especially the one one that really matters.

 

The question at hand was would you rather lose the NFC championship or the Super Bowl...and I still would rather lose the championship. I honestly don't believe teams learn from losing the SB. Most that do, then wallow in misery for years after. Whereas teams that lose the NFC championship tend to be in the mix for the next few years and a good chunk go on to win it.

 

And, the question isn't a slippery slope into losing in the regular season, not making the playoffs, etc.. It was A or B... And no, if you throw C in, I want to make the playoffs every year regardless where we lose in them. It shows a sign of being a solid team, and one would hope, the team could learn from mistakes and eventaully win the big one.

 

It's a personal thing. I'm approaching it from a fatalistic and logical approach. The laws of average point that SB losing teams wallow in misery for years more often that conf championship losers. Or at least would appear that way from my years of following the NFL. Or maybe the stigma of losing the SB is just too unpleasant. No one remembers who lost in the conf game, only who lost in the SB. The biggest low, is losing the SB. Because the expectation is there to win. Just my personal thoughts...

 

[lemonej]

My take on this whole notion of losing before you get to the SB to save some kind of humilation is opposite of those who think thats okay. I for one think that it sucks to lose the NFC Championship game which is why it felts so good to win the SB the following year. I can remember the feeling me and my cousin had after they lost and we were crushed. We had made it to the championship game with 4 different Qbs plus Payton playing QB and we had just one our first playoff game since 1963 and I was alive back then. The previous 2 playoff appearances ended in a blowout lost to Dallas and a controversial lost to Philly. If you were watching back then you can understand why some of us who have been able to watch every SB enjoy the fact that our team has been able to participate in 2 out of 40 plus contests. Why? Because by my account that constitues a rare occassion and many times you have heard players say that enjoy the moment because you never know when you will get back there again. Just ask Dan Marino.

[madlithuanian]

As I am probably equally puzzled how some fans could feel the opposite...

 

I am actually enjoying the discussion, but if it's going to go in circles, then it may be best to put it to rest. I'm fairly open on this, but I've honestly not heard a compelling reason to change my mind.

 

As you said, it is personal for you, and there is little point in arguing it. It just blows my mind to hear this.

 

[madlithuanian]

nfo, you're using the erroneous slipperly slope arguement. We're all going to die right, so why don't we all just jump off the Sears towere tomnorrow (I still call it Sears...)? One need not take a 2 prong ficticious argument to the infinite degree.

 

It is a very different question to now ask, would you rather A) not go to the playoffs go to the SB and lose

 

In that instance I would choose B. It is integral to always go to the playoffs as it instill a winning state of mind and experience is gained. But it is not ingegral to lose SB's. Usually, losing teams falter miserably for years after barring a few exceptions. It would appear, SB losers don't "learn" from their mistakes", where playoff losers, tend to. I know we appeared to in 1984, and we appeared not to in 2007.

 

So if you are not going to win the SB, tank the whole season. I mean, no point in going to the playoffs if you can't win the SB, right?

 

Sorry, that thought just kills me. Do you think you suddenly become great? No. You often have to work your way up. You get some success, build and that success, and then win it all.

 

[madlithuanian]

Although I'm not 100% with you on this lemonej, I think you provided the best explantion and justification I've heard on this. Kudos!

 

My take on this whole notion of losing before you get to the SB to save some kind of humilation is opposite of those who think thats okay. I for one think that it sucks to lose the NFC Championship game which is why it felts so good to win the SB the following year. I can remember the feeling me and my cousin had after they lost and we were crushed. We had made it to the championship game with 4 different Qbs plus Payton playing QB and we had just one our first playoff game since 1963 and I was alive back then. The previous 2 playoff appearances ended in a blowout lost to Dallas and a controversial lost to Philly. If you were watching back then you can understand why some of us who have been able to watch every SB enjoy the fact that our team has been able to participate in 2 out of 40 plus contests. Why? Because by my account that constitues a rare occassion and many times you have heard players say that enjoy the moment because you never know when you will get back there again. Just ask Dan Marino.

 

[nfoligno]

I disagree the slippery slope argument here is that much of a stretch. And yes, I realize how much the slipperly slope argument can be stretched. I remember back in school when I was on the debate team, every argument (and I do mean every) would somehow lead to nuclear war. It was ridiculous, but that is how the arguments went back then. Jaywalking would lead to nuclear destruction

 

To me though, the logic for not reaching the SB is simply a closer peg to not making the playoffs at all. If the argument is, as I read it (less with you) that it is pretty much a SB or bust rationale, then what is the point of making the playoffs at all if you are going to get bounced early?

 

Look, I get your argument about the SB loser jinx. For me though, I simply feel you strive to get as far and deep as you possibly can. If you look at the history of the NFL, there are only so many teams that have won the SB, and numerous who have never even reached it that far. Sure, it hurts to lose it, but to say you were not even good enough to get there is pretty bad as well.

 

At the end of the day, we simply disagree, and I think we can leave it at that. If this were the offseason, we could have fun debating the issue more, but right now, I think we have better things to discuss, like the greatness of Lovie Smith

 

nfo, you're using the erroneous slipperly slope arguement. We're all going to die right, so why don't we all just jump off the Sears towere tomnorrow (I still call it Sears...)? One need not take a 2 prong ficticious argument to the infinite degree.

 

It is a very different question to now ask, would you rather A) not go to the playoffs go to the SB and lose

 

In that instance I would choose B. It is integral to always go to the playoffs as it instill a winning state of mind and experience is gained. But it is not ingegral to lose SB's. Usually, losing teams falter miserably for years after barring a few exceptions. It would appear, SB losers don't "learn" from their mistakes", where playoff losers, tend to. I know we appeared to in 1984, and we appeared not to in 2007.

 

[balta1701-A]

BTW, thanks for cleaning up the personal attacks guys. Much more enjoyable discussion followed.