TalkBears FF 2010

[nfoligno]

Trust me, you have plenty of company. If it were not for some picks I made in the mid teens, I am not sure I would even be keeping a player. The only reason I think I was decent last year was due to a couple waiver wire additions, and a couple later round picks that did well.

 

Wow....I took brandon Jacobs in the 2nd. Talk about ass clown pick

 

[nfoligno]

I've had some time to think on it, and I too agree (and vote) that a new teams gets to inherit a previous owners roster. If Pix is indeed out, and Mad is taking his slot, Pix's roster (and keeper options) are his. If other owners drop out and we add to replace, as you said, first come rule.

 

Agreed also that an owner doesn't have to keep anyone.

 

Id also like to add that I dont think anyone should HAVE to keep anyone, they just have a full draft. Makes sense to me if you only want to keep one or none than fine.

 

[Pixote]

I guess I do need to confirm, although I truly love FF, I am going to take a year off. I have some other things going on and I do not want to take time out from what is more important to obsess over a FF roster. I would prefer to reserve any free time I can muster up to follow the Bears and any other games I can catch. I actually have Directv NFL Sunday Ticket this year and am looking forward to being able to watch any game I want live.

 

Best of luck to all of you. Next year if there is an opening maybe I will jump back in.

 

 

[bradjock]

2 Questions:

 

1. How the heck do we manage the keepers? Isn't that a pain in the butt? I probably want Tashard Choice in the 15th round . . .

 

I assume the draft order be opposite of place?

 

If that's the case, the draft order would be:

1. Bluecollarbears

2. Noppar

3. Papabear

4. Branch Palinians

5. Cali Bears

6. Black and Blues Brothers

7. Acedthesobrietytest

8. Brass Cajones

9. Devil Dogs

10. Crushers

[sulster]

I say if you decide to keep your 1st round pick you only keep 1 guy. If you decide not keep your 1st round pick from last year, you get to keep 2 guys from last year

[nfoligno]

Sulster,

 

We voted at the end of the year, and I am pretty sure part of that vote was to excluse 1st round keepers. If we want to re-vote, that is fine, but that is still how I would vote. The key issue I have with keeping 1st round players is this. A person who gets a high pick in the draft, and thus takes one of the elite players, should not be rewarded, IMHO, a 2nd year for that one piece of luck.

 

I say if you decide to keep your 1st round pick you only keep 1 guy. If you decide not keep your 1st round pick from last year, you get to keep 2 guys from last year

 

[nfoligno]

Brad,

 

I have not run a league, but I do not think it is difficult. Maybe it once was, but keepers is a pretty common thing these days, and I think most leagues are set up to manage them within the draft.

 

As for the 2nd question, I have always played where you redo the draft order. In reality, you base draft order on last years results, but the reason for doing that is to benefit the team that sucks. That isn't the reality of FF though as each owner has a new team each year, and thus the rationale for basing your order on last years standings sort of goes out the window.

 

2 Questions:

 

1. How the heck do we manage the keepers? Isn't that a pain in the butt? I probably want Tashard Choice in the 15th round . . .

 

I assume the draft order be opposite of place?

 

If that's the case, the draft order would be:

1. Bluecollarbears

2. Noppar

3. Papabear

4. Branch Palinians

5. Cali Bears

6. Black and Blues Brothers

7. Acedthesobrietytest

8. Brass Cajones

9. Devil Dogs

10. Crushers

 

[sulster]

Ok, I thought we still deciding what we were still doing. With all questions and answers I got discombobulated a little. I will just wait patiently for the email that has all the final stipulations in place and pay my $25.

[madlithuanian]

Agreed...

 

One more thing I think should be established.

 

How long can you keep a player. I'll use my example. I am likely going to keep Mendenhall this year. Do I get to keep him next year, or does he go back into the pool? Some leagues allow a player to be kept essentially forever. Some restrict the keeper to one year. Others set a 2 or 3 year keeper allowance.

 

My vote would be one year. That rewards the owner who made the good pick without giving him a long term advantage.

 

[madlithuanian]

What I had seen before was each team keeps 2 players, regardless of where drafted. Then the draft begins anew in opposite finishing order of the previous season.

 

You could only retain those 2 players for one year, then repeat again.

 

It was simple, but worked. There seems to be lots of variations on a theme. I'm just excited to get into a keeper league again after many years of not being in a keeper.

 

 

 

I guess it is less likely in our league. In the league I previously played, you had the option to keep a player, but you also had to pay extra. I think it cost another $25. Often it was worth it, but frankly, more often than you might think, an owners keeper options just weren't that great.

 

One, players drafted in the earlier part of the draft don't too often rise more than a round worth. For example, last year I took Schaub in the 4th. If I am picking at the top of the 3rd round this year, is Schaub that great of a keeper value?

 

Two, while you often see "hits" with later draft picks, they are not as common as you might think. You start taking a lot of chances that simply don't pay off.

 

Three, often you draft a player that would be nice keeper value, only to realize you cut that player. There is often so much turnover between the draft and the end of the season that an owners keeper options are more limited than you might think. Take the above player as an example. Even if you felt Schaub was a 1st round value, and thus a solid keeper value for me, it wouldn't matter as I had traded him during the season.

 

Right now, I am liking my keeper potential. I took Mendenhall with the 13 pick, and thus he would cost me only a 12 round pick. As many are going to consider him a top 10 RB, that is awesome value. Others I like that I will choose from: Hakeem Nicks taken in the 14th round, Brent Celek taken in the 17th round and....well....that's probably it, sad to say. Take a look at the post Flea provided. There are definitely some solid keeper values, but not as many as you might think, especially when you start to knock out the players who were injured (and thus cut) and players who were traded.

 

Put this is perspective. Take a look at Pix's old team. Who would you be looking at keeping. I think he was Brass Cajones. If you want to keep Nate Keading for a 16th pick, tell you what, I will vote in your favor

 

[nfoligno]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to bash or anything.

 

We had a vote on some of the issues last year, like some of the keeper rules and payouts. It has been a while since those votes, so there has been some discussion as to how the voting results went, but also, there have been several new issues which have been raised going forward adding to the discussion.

 

Based on my memory, which isn't all that, we choose to keep two players, giving up a round earlier then when drafted originally, which would also by rule excluse 1st round picks. If you wish to re-visit the issue though, I am not saying that isn't possible.

 

As I have said before, this is a new league, and with any new league, you have "issues" to resolve. In another keeper league I was in, I swear we voted on new rules every year for over 10 years, and the early years had many new votes/discussions. Nothing wrong with bringing such discussions to the table. In the end, if owners are not happy with the setup, they will not stick with the league, and in a keeper league (IMHO) having owners return is a key.

 

Ok, I thought we still deciding what we were still doing. With all questions and answers I got discombobulated a little. I will just wait patiently for the email that has all the final stipulations in place and pay my $25.

 

[sulster]

From all the keeper leagues I've been involved in, there were no restrictions on which players you can keep. Pick your 2 players and your first 2 rounds have been picked. Once you submit your 2 names prior to the draft, there is no switching unless of injury. You don't have to keep any if you don't want to

[nfoligno]

I guess what I really dislike about this is you benefit two years simply due to where you got to pick out of the draft lottery. If a guy gets the 10th pick in the draft, he can still draft great players, but whoever got the top pick seems to have an unfair advantage because he gets to keep (for example) Adrain Peterson two years in a row simply because he lucked into his draft position.

 

After the 1st round, you really can't complain about the draft position so much as all players are in play, but that 1st round is more about where you get to draft.

 

From all the keeper leagues I've been involved in, there were no restrictions on which players you can keep. Pick your 2 players and your first 2 rounds have been picked. Once you submit your 2 names prior to the draft, there is no switching unless of injury. You don't have to keep any if you don't want to

 

[sulster]

Well what if we change the draft order. Here's an example. Let's say the top 3 guys who drafted last year, don't want to keep their guy, but the 4th guy does...the 4th guy would move up to 1st pick...so in the 2nd round he picks last. So anyone who wants to keep their guys moves to the top and drafts their guys...

 

Let's use me as an example....I drafted AP 2nd and I want him again and the guy who drafted Forte 1st doesn't want his. I would move to 1st and draft AP, then I would pick last in the 2nd round. But here is where it gets interesting, since we do it in basketball. The guy who picked 1st last year has the option of moving to the end or staying at 2nd. I know many had waiting that long between picks. Many would prefer to 2 great players, rather 1 elite.

[sulster]

But let me add, since I forgot to add this part which is important...all the guys who decided to keep their keeper move to the top before the guy who picked 1st last decides where in the draft he wants to be.

[nfoligno]

One. Maybe I simply did not drink enough coffee today, but that seems really confusing.

 

Two. It still doesn't touch on the main point I mentioned earlier. Last year, you got lucky and had the 2nd pick in the draft. There was no skill involved in that. You simply got lucky when the computer spit out the draft order. If we allow 1st round keepers, that essentially gives you a 2 year benefit for no more than the computer giving you a great draft pick. That is the biggest issue I have in all this.

 

It may not seem as big now, but I remember those years when players like LT and LJ were consistently not only elite, but there was a big dropoff after them. It was simply not fair to allow an owner to keep those players when they did nothing more than get lucky in the draft order.

 

Does that make sense? Any pick after the 1st round, there is little argument as every team had the option to take that player but passed in favor of someone else. But in the first round, who you can draft often is dictated more based on where you draft. Allowing 1st round keepers simply gives too much benefit to an owner for doing nothing more than getting lucky when the computer spit out the draft order.

 

But let me add, since I forgot to add this part which is important...all the guys who decided to keep their keeper move to the top before the guy who picked 1st last decides where in the draft he wants to be.

 

[madlithuanian]

I think I just switched to Sanka as well...

 

 

It does sound confusing. I'm happy to sit back and wait this out until there's a concrete vote. But, my feeling is the easier the better.

 

I think part of the idea of a keeper league is that some years won't be ad fair as others,especially the first year. Yep, someone's going to luck into AP or Brees or Manning,etc...and they will get them for 2 years. However, after the 2 years, they go back into the pool. And at that point, the team with the lowest rank, gets dibs by virtue of drafting first. And it goes on and on.

 

That's why I personally think that every owenre should just be forced to keep 2 players, and then the draft starts in reverse finishing order of last years' results. It keep sit easy and simple. There may be some advantages/disadvantages to that this year, but it will even out over time. And that's the objective for a keeper league.

 

But, I'm more than happy to have it be complicated.

 

 

 

 

 

One. Maybe I simply did not drink enough coffee today, but that seems really confusing.

 

Two. It still doesn't touch on the main point I mentioned earlier. Last year, you got lucky and had the 2nd pick in the draft. There was no skill involved in that. You simply got lucky when the computer spit out the draft order. If we allow 1st round keepers, that essentially gives you a 2 year benefit for no more than the computer giving you a great draft pick. That is the biggest issue I have in all this.

 

It may not seem as big now, but I remember those years when players like LT and LJ were consistently not only elite, but there was a big dropoff after them. It was simply not fair to allow an owner to keep those players when they did nothing more than get lucky in the draft order.

 

Does that make sense? Any pick after the 1st round, there is little argument as every team had the option to take that player but passed in favor of someone else. But in the first round, who you can draft often is dictated more based on where you draft. Allowing 1st round keepers simply gives too much benefit to an owner for doing nothing more than getting lucky when the computer spit out the draft order.

 

[sulster]

I guess it would easier to explain verbally than typing it on a keyboard. To be honest, I say we forget the whole Keeper concept. There are too many variables and kinda difficult to reslove over the keyboard.....there is stuff popping up that we didnt think about when we voted last season. So I vote to forget the keeper, so we can avoid people oding on coffee,

[nfoligno]

One. I personally hate the idea of basing draft order on last year's standings. This is not the NFL, it is FF. In the NFL, the bad teams get the high picks to add talent to their teams. In FF, you don't carry over the previous years team, as in the NFL, and thus there is no need to base it on last years standings.

 

Further, one of the most frustrating things (at least for me) in FF is when an owner essentially quits. They realize they are out of it and essentially mail it in. They stop even trying to win. IMHO, if you base future draft orders on past seasons, it only gives incentive for a team to mail it in once they are done.

 

Two. Also disagree with forcing a team to keep 2 players from the previous year. Its one thing to get to keep your best player from the previous year (or two players) and another thing to force a team to keep mediocre players if their previous year was just that bad. I guess I simply don't see the reasoning in forcing a team to keep players. It is supposed to be a benefit for good drafting, not a punishment for poor drafting.

 

Maybe this is simply a matter of...whatever you grew up with is what you think is right. I had a discussion at work about school/grades. I grew up with k-5th as elementary, 6th-8th as middle and 9th-12th as high school. To me, that is the right/best way. Others in my office grew up with a varied assortment of different grade pairings, and they too felt the way they grew up was the right/best way. I realize this may be the same. I was in a keeper league for a long time. I like the way we ran it, and thus feel it is best.

 

I think I just switched to Sanka as well...

 

 

It does sound confusing. I'm happy to sit back and wait this out until there's a concrete vote. But, my feeling is the easier the better.

 

I think part of the idea of a keeper league is that some years won't be ad fair as others,especially the first year. Yep, someone's going to luck into AP or Brees or Manning,etc...and they will get them for 2 years. However, after the 2 years, they go back into the pool. And at that point, the team with the lowest rank, gets dibs by virtue of drafting first. And it goes on and on.

 

That's why I personally think that every owenre should just be forced to keep 2 players, and then the draft starts in reverse finishing order of last years' results. It keep sit easy and simple. There may be some advantages/disadvantages to that this year, but it will even out over time. And that's the objective for a keeper league.

 

But, I'm more than happy to have it be complicated.

 

[nfoligno]

For the record, there is no such thing as an overdose of coffee. I drink my first pot by 9am, and the 2nd is usually gone by 11. I'll make another pot of coffee early afternoon, and maybe one more after dinner. Sad thing is, it doesn't even wake me up anymore, but I sure get a headache if I skip it.

 

I still want to do the keeper. I don't think there are any big issues that have come up since last year. Minor things like, "how long do we keep a player" or whether a team is allowed to keep one or none rather than two, but those are minor issues.

 

Personally, I really want to stick with the keeper league. That is what I thought we joined the league for, as I don't think the other Bearstalk leagues were doing keepers.

 

I guess it would easier to explain verbally than typing it on a keyboard. To be honest, I say we forget the whole Keeper concept. There are too many variables and kinda difficult to reslove over the keyboard.....there is stuff popping up that we didnt think about when we voted last season. So I vote to forget the keeper, so we can avoid people oding on coffee,

 

[madlithuanian]

I like the order from last years' standings personally. I kind of think that's one of the reasons for a keeper league. You are kind of having the same team...

 

I do hear you. It's whatyou're used to. And since I was only in one briefly before it disbanded, and haven't been in one since many moons ago...I'm probalby the wosrt person to rely on!

 

My only real thought is if it's a keeper, than players should be kept. If your draft or FA pick ups were so bad that you can't muster up 2 decent guys to hold onto, that's your problem. You keep the 2 best, and hope to draft better this time around. Just my deflated 2 cents worth...

 

PS - It's K-6, 7-8, then 9-12!

 

One. I personally hate the idea of basing draft order on last year's standings. This is not the NFL, it is FF. In the NFL, the bad teams get the high picks to add talent to their teams. In FF, you don't carry over the previous years team, as in the NFL, and thus there is no need to base it on last years standings.

 

Further, one of the most frustrating things (at least for me) in FF is when an owner essentially quits. They realize they are out of it and essentially mail it in. They stop even trying to win. IMHO, if you base future draft orders on past seasons, it only gives incentive for a team to mail it in once they are done.

 

Two. Also disagree with forcing a team to keep 2 players from the previous year. Its one thing to get to keep your best player from the previous year (or two players) and another thing to force a team to keep mediocre players if their previous year was just that bad. I guess I simply don't see the reasoning in forcing a team to keep players. It is supposed to be a benefit for good drafting, not a punishment for poor drafting.

 

Maybe this is simply a matter of...whatever you grew up with is what you think is right. I had a discussion at work about school/grades. I grew up with k-5th as elementary, 6th-8th as middle and 9th-12th as high school. To me, that is the right/best way. Others in my office grew up with a varied assortment of different grade pairings, and they too felt the way they grew up was the right/best way. I realize this may be the same. I was in a keeper league for a long time. I like the way we ran it, and thus feel it is best.

 

[madlithuanian]

I can't agree more about keeping the keeper! That's why I'm interested in joining! If it were not a keeper, I don't want to join I'm already in a league. I want something different!

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, there is no such thing as an overdose of coffee. I drink my first pot by 9am, and the 2nd is usually gone by 11. I'll make another pot of coffee early afternoon, and maybe one more after dinner. Sad thing is, it doesn't even wake me up anymore, but I sure get a headache if I skip it.

 

I still want to do the keeper. I don't think there are any big issues that have come up since last year. Minor things like, "how long do we keep a player" or whether a team is allowed to keep one or none rather than two, but those are minor issues.

 

Personally, I really want to stick with the keeper league. That is what I thought we joined the league for, as I don't think the other Bearstalk leagues were doing keepers.

 

[nfoligno]

PS - It's K-6, 7-8, then 9-12!

 

You should have heard the arguments yesterday. My kids will have similar to what I did through middle, but here, they have 9/10 and then sep 11/12. Dang class sizes are in the 1,500 to 1,800 range.

 

Others said they had k-6, but their middle was 7-9.

 

In the end, it was simply educational how different school systems are set up, even when they are 10 minutes apart, and how passionately people can argue which is better.

 

 

 

 

[sulster]

to be honest....i'm just bitter i picked Brandon Jacobs in the 2nd round

[nfoligno]

Well, my pick of Ronnie Brown in the 3rd was far from inspired. I think Ricky Williams may have actually double Brown's yardage and points. Eddie Royal in the 5th? I must have been drunk. Oh yea, and my back-to-back AARP picks of Holt and Mason. Nice!

 

Mendenhall in the 13th and Hakeem Nicks in the 14th were picks to please, and Rothlisberger in the 16th did me very well, but when I look back at my draft, I....I don't know. Not one of my proudest moments.

 

At least I didn't take Forte with the first pick of the draft, as my friend did.

 

to be honest....i'm just bitter i picked Brandon Jacobs in the 2nd round