Lovie and JA vs another coach-GM Tandem of The Bears

[lemonej]

There is only one coach-GM tandem in Bear history that is more successful than Lovie and JA and that is Ditka and Finks. The problem is when Ditka was hired the "Ole Man" stepped in and stepped on Finks toes basically forcing Ditka down Finks' throat since Ditka as a Dallas assistant wrote a letter to Halas campaigning for the HC job. That made their time together only 2 years. The "Ole Man" also stepped on Ditka's toes by hiring the defensive coordinator(Buddy Ryan) before hiring the head coach. Since the man that hired Finks, George "Mugsy" Halas Jr had passed away Jim Finks felt betrayed and left the organization during the 83 season and had a short lived stint with the Cubs as team president during the 84(Yes another historic seaon in my life) season and later joined the Saints and ushered in the Jim Mora Sr. era that started a Saints surge to competiveness.

 

With all this being said this current tandem is probably 2nd when it comes to success in team history, with "The Ole Man" and all his HOF picks through the years and NFL Championships the tops in team history. Ditka and Finks had 1 playoff appearance with Ditka and Vanisi getting credit for the SB appearance.. Finks arrived in 74 hired Jack Pardee and drafted Walter Payton, Dan Hampton, Mike Singletary and Richard Dent all HOFers in his 10 year tenure. Finks resume when you add some of his players in Minnesota is very impressive but since the league has expanded to 32 teams and 16 games the talent pool has been depleted and it is more of a gamble to try and draft players. Looking at the talent in some of the last few drafts not all the 1st rounders have panned out for a lot of teams and if you add up the top 10 busts recently the Bears have only one in recent memory(Benson) under JA. They have generally drafted in the teens under JA and have had 2 top ten picks with one netting Haynes and Grossman and the other being Benson. Since 2 out of 3 guys are still in the NFL right now thats not so bad IMO. With Columbo having a solid career at Dallas and Tommie Harris being cut, I'm thinking that maybe the constant changes in staff may have a lot to do with why this team has not developed players properly.

 

So I ask all true Bear fans who do you think would have done better under the Mc Caskeys than these two guys?

[madlithuanian]

Honestly, we'll never know.

 

The biggest question is really do the coaches matter for us for the longest while? One could make an arguement that any success the bears have had is solely based on having a healthy team out there. And mostly on D... The whole Cutler thing add a dimention we've not been able to talk about in 20 years really besided the odd Kramer year. Having a potnetial potent offense.

 

The record, etc that JA and Smith have garsnished, I personally feel, could have been done by others. I don't really feel that JA and Smith are that good that their presence makes the difference. But that's just me... I'm sure others here feel that Smith and JA are doing a fantastic job and are the reason for success. I just happen to think the team wins in spite of them... and that means they have to all be healthy and we need pure kickass guys.

 

PS - I loved your analysis...

 

There is only one coach-GM tandem in Bear history that is more successful than Lovie and JA and that is Ditka and Finks. The problem is when Ditka was hired the "Ole Man" stepped in and stepped on Finks toes basically forcing Ditka down Finks' throat since Ditka as a Dallas assistant wrote a letter to Halas campaigning for the HC job. That made their time together only 2 years. The "Ole Man" also stepped on Ditka's toes by hiring the defensive coordinator(Buddy Ryan) before hiring the head coach. Since the man that hired Finks, George "Mugsy" Halas Jr had passed away Jim Finks felt betrayed and left the organization during the 83 season and had a short lived stint with the Cubs as team president during the 84(Yes another historic seaon in my life) season and later joined the Saints and ushered in the Jim Mora Sr. era that started a Saints surge to competiveness.

 

With all this being said this current tandem is probably 2nd when it comes to success in team history, with "The Ole Man" and all his HOF picks through the years and NFL Championships the tops in team history. Ditka and Finks had 1 playoff appearance with Ditka and Vanisi getting credit for the SB appearance.. Finks arrived in 74 hired Jack Pardee and drafted Walter Payton, Dan Hampton, Mike Singletary and Richard Dent all HOFers in his 10 year tenure. Finks resume when you add some of his players in Minnesota is very impressive but since the league has expanded to 32 teams and 16 games the talent pool has been depleted and it is more of a gamble to try and draft players. Looking at the talent in some of the last few drafts not all the 1st rounders have panned out for a lot of teams and if you add up the top 10 busts recently the Bears have only one in recent memory(Benson) under JA. They have generally drafted in the teens under JA and have had 2 top ten picks with one netting Haynes and Grossman and the other being Benson. Since 2 out of 3 guys are still in the NFL right now thats not so bad IMO. With Columbo having a solid career at Dallas and Tommie Harris being cut, I'm thinking that maybe the constant changes in staff may have a lot to do with why this team has not developed players properly.

 

So I ask all true Bear fans who do you think would have done better under the Mc Caskeys than these two guys?

 

[lemonej]

Honestly, we'll never know.

 

The biggest question is really do the coaches matter for us for the longest while? One could make an arguement that any success the bears have had is solely based on having a healthy team out there. And mostly on D... The whole Cutler thing add a dimention we've not been able to talk about in 20 years really besided the odd Kramer year. Having a potnetial potent offense.

 

The record, etc that JA and Smith have garsnished, I personally feel, could have been done by others. I don't really feel that JA and Smith are that good that their presence makes the difference. But that's just me... I'm sure others here feel that Smith and JA are doing a fantastic job and are the reason for success. I just happen to think the team wins in spite of them... and that means they have to all be healthy and we need pure kickass guys.

 

PS - I loved your analysis...

Mad L not to go against you but I just feel like I've gone from living in the "Sports Projects" to "Sports Middle Class" which means I'm doing better but not great. A lot of us have had to pull for another team come playoff time that when the Bears reach the Championship game we really don't know how to act. I believe that's when the "Chicago Insecurity" creeps in. You know the : " If they don't win... they all should be fired."

 

Aside from Kruetz,Manelly,Urlacher and I think the Maynard the players that you think are winning in-spite of the coach/GM have been acquired by them.

 

So you just don't like these two and thats it. I'm not mad at ya for it.

 

As a matter of fact I'm not mad at anyone on this board that doesn't like these 2 because of their arrogant demeanor when ever they speak at a press conference. They act as though they are talking down to us and the media.

[GrizzlyBear]

Well I for one had to live through the Abe Gibron era and before. I was 17 when he was coaching and what a display this cat put on. Bad coaches are aplenty in the NFL, having a coach that is beloved as Smith is with his players and will lay it all out for him the way they do says a bunch to me. Peppers was asked how was his year last year? His response says allot. MY most fun year I had , Learned so much this year it was absolutely a blast. (paraphrased) That tells me a whole bunch. To think Players would win inspite of thier coach is kind of dim outlook on the Bears in general. I would hate to see what it would be like next year if Cowher took over. Just the changes in personel to get a 3-4 is rediculous after spending the money on Peppers. Marinelli would be let go. which means Peppers will be very unhappy not including Url. Its just way to much to keep a winning season so he will be loved. and Cowher without a GM backing him would a bigger looser then Wanny ever was.

[madlithuanian]

No, I understand. In in those terms I agree. But I want more than the middle class...I want the pinnacle. I'm not basing my opinion on Smith and company lightly. They have made far too many mistakes. And they have all rec'd a fari share of luck. I just fear the Jauron syndrome. One good year followed by numerous poor ones.

 

But many of the players perfomrning were shoe-ins. Peppers was obvious. Cutler was obvious. I give Briggs and Hester. But, the rest are pretty fair at best, and far too many busts.

 

I actually dislike JA more than Smith. If JA could get Smith better players, we'd do better. I like both guys as guys. But as top calibur football minds, that they are not. I really was on Smith's side all this year. I thought he did a great job. Except in the only game that truly mattered. The playoff loss to GB. Nice run and all, but I feel hollow.

 

And I totally get where you're coming from on your post. I loved reading it! I basically agree...there's not been uch better from the Bears. But I find that there's not much better to be a bad thing.

 

 

 

Mad L not to go against you but I just feel like I've gone from living in the "Sports Projects" to "Sports Middle Class" which means I'm doing better but not great. A lot of us have had to pull for another team come playoff time that when the Bears reach the Championship game we really don't know how to act. I believe that's when the "Chicago Insecurity" creeps in. You know the : " If they don't win... they all should be fired."

 

Aside from Kruetz,Manelly,Urlacher and I think the Maynard the players that you think are winning in-spite of the coach/GM have been acquired by them.

 

So you just don't like these two and thats it. I'm not mad at ya for it.

 

As a matter of fact I'm not mad at anyone on this board that doesn't like these 2 because of their arrogant demeanor when ever they speak at a press conference. They act as though they are talking down to us and the media.

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I like the reasonableness of this discussion. Interestingly enough I just read an article about Lovie's extension from a self- proclaimed "non fan"'and found it, insightful:

 

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/62077...ion-makes-sense

 

The article makes note of many of the observations made here and paraphrases both sides in simple terms. As has been stated here and in the article, Lovie does not appeal to everyone. He is not the "in your face" style akin to Ditka but apparently is effective enough to those that count, the players. I get that. After 20 years in the military and currently working in the public service sector, I can say I have worked for both Lovie's and Ditka's. Personally I tend to react better to the Lovies.

 

But that's just me.

[jason]

Lot of good points in this thread. First, I'd say that I don't like joining JA and Lovie like proposed. It's too simplistic. If I had to break it down, I'd put in in a few quick categories off the top of my head:

 

JA's drafting: Average at best

JA's FA pickups: Better than average

Lovie's coaching: Average at best

Lovie's rapport with the players: Better than average

 

Extending on Alaskan Grizzly's thoughts, people in this generation to work better for the Lovie's of this world. Accountability and responsibility are of less importance than they once were. This is especially true of kids coming out of college right now. To put it simply, kids today are selfish and spoiled...more so than ever before. The professional athletes are even worse. They would rather have a coach who wants them to win, but gives them the "aw shucks, we'll get'em next time" speech after a loss...while on the way to get the entire team ice cream.

 

The problem: The Ditka's and Cowher's of this world tend to do a better job at inspiring their people to work harder, to reach beyond their barriers, to achieve what they previously thought not possible. History is littered with these type of men leading others towards success. There aren't nearly as many Lovie success stories, especially when it comes to something as hyper-aggressive as NFL football, a game that is often compared to the exploits of war.

 

Right now, lemonej is right, the Bears' are NFL middle class. With JA and Lovie I believe it's exactly where the Bears will stay.

[madlithuanian]

Thanks for posting the article! It was an interesting read.

 

I too have worked for both types...and I know I would rather work for Smith. I prefer country clubs!

 

I like the reasonableness of this discussion. Interestingly enough I just read an article about Lovie's extension from a self- proclaimed "non fan"'and found it, insightful:

 

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/62077...ion-makes-sense

 

The article makes note of many of the observations made here and paraphrases both sides in simple terms. As has been stated here and in the article, Lovie does not appeal to everyone. He is not the "in your face" style akin to Ditka but apparently is effective enough to those that count, the players. I get that. After 20 years in the military and currently working in the public service sector, I can say I have worked for both Lovie's and Ditka's. Personally I tend to react better to the Lovies.

 

But that's just me.

 

[madlithuanian]

I think you wrote, more eloquently, what I was trying to say...

 

Lot of good points in this thread. First, I'd say that I don't like joining JA and Lovie like proposed. It's too simplistic. If I had to break it down, I'd put in in a few quick categories off the top of my head:

 

JA's drafting: Average at best

JA's FA pickups: Better than average

Lovie's coaching: Average at best

Lovie's rapport with the players: Better than average

 

Extending on Alaskan Grizzly's thoughts, people in this generation to work better for the Lovie's of this world. Accountability and responsibility are of less importance than they once were. This is especially true of kids coming out of college right now. To put it simply, kids today are selfish and spoiled...more so than ever before. The professional athletes are even worse. They would rather have a coach who wants them to win, but gives them the "aw shucks, we'll get'em next time" speech after a loss...while on the way to get the entire team ice cream.

 

The problem: The Ditka's and Cowher's of this world tend to do a better job at inspiring their people to work harder, to reach beyond their barriers, to achieve what they previously thought not possible. History is littered with these type of men leading others towards success. There aren't nearly as many Lovie success stories, especially when it comes to something as hyper-aggressive as NFL football, a game that is often compared to the exploits of war.

 

Right now, lemonej is right, the Bears' are NFL middle class. With JA and Lovie I believe it's exactly where the Bears will stay.

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Extending on Alaskan Grizzly's thoughts, people in this generation to work better for the Lovie's of this world. Accountability and responsibility are of less importance than they once were. This is especially true of kids coming out of college right now. To put it simply, kids today are selfish and spoiled...more so than ever before. The professional athletes are even worse. They would rather have a coach who wants them to win, but gives them the "aw shucks, we'll get'em next time" speech after a loss...while on the way to get the entire team ice cream.

 

The problem: The Ditka's and Cowher's of this world tend to do a better job at inspiring their people to work harder, to reach beyond their barriers, to achieve what they previously thought not possible. History is littered with these type of men leading others towards success. There aren't nearly as many Lovie success stories, especially when it comes to something as hyper-aggressive as NFL football, a game that is often compared to the exploits of war.

 

Sure there could be an emphasis of "less accountability and responsibility" than was once before. And I am certain that if you were to ask a representative from each generation, theirs' was more responsible or had it tougher than the next. We've all heard the metaphoric "I used to have to walk to school uphill in both directions and in snow storms" (some of which was true for me ), but kids react (and to a degree adults) to how they are influenced, not so much by who.

 

As far as being able to "inspire" people, especially professional football players I can only ask you this; how do you explain the Tom Landrys, the Bill Belichecks, the George Seiferts, the Joe Gibbs' and the Mike Shannahans'? All coaches who won multiple Super Bowls? What about Tony Dungy? These were leaders that lacked the fiery displays along the sidelines that you compare Ditka and Cowher to.

 

And no Mad Lith, I have never worked for a country club. Just had good leaders who were able to understand the definition of humility and that they did not know all the answers. But instead understood the importance of leading by example, other than word.

 

[GrizzlyBear]

Totaly agree Alaska, after 23 years in the Army I to responded to leaders that were calmer then my drill was. But I did respond well to my Drill , so much so I went the difficult route of Special ops. But after being in that enviroment, it seemed that leadership had a more firm but soft form. Best decribed in my early leadeship classes as WARM PRICKLYS. Being firm but freindly. I think I would have responded better to Ditka early on, But Lovie later on. Does that make sense??

[lemonej]

Guys this is all good stuff and if you really look at the history of the SB winners most of the fiery guys have one win and the stoic guys have multiple wins or losses (Sorry Bud Grant and Dan Reeves fans). Of the fiery guys with multiple wins Lombardi, Parcells and Jimmy Johnson come to mind. Marv Levy is they only fiery guy who reached multiple SBs and got no wins. The stoics include Noll who was a mean SOB according to Terry Bradshaw, Shula, Landry, Walsh, Gibbs, Shanahan and Belechick. Sometimes that steady demeanor does tend to make a team play steady.

 

Lets think about these guys for a minute. Hank Stram, Weeb Eubank, John Madden, Mike Ditka,Bill Cowher,Dick Vermeil, Tom Coughlin, Mike Holmgren and John Gruden. All of these guy did win a SB but in most cases they were all in the year that they won. Stram after getting embarrassed in SB one he went all in in SB 4 and basically was done after that. In most cases it was a combination of aging veterans losing their edge and players basically not being able to take those same ol' motivational tactics the very next year.

 

I have to face the facts ,back when I was going to elementary school(Grammar school way back when) I had a teacher that would whip you with a yard stick(36 inch ruler) if you didn't do your homework and your parents were on board with that and if it happened you wouldn't dare tell them because it may have resulted in more severe punishment. Let a teacher try that now and there is a law suit, a You Tube video and all sorts of exposure to something like that. Its just a totally different society that we live in now and guys who know how to psych players into doing their jobs are going to be more effective than a Mike Singletary whose act got old quick. If we look at the longest tenured coaches right now the stoics have the fiery out numbered. Its kinda like when your dad was being a jerk to you and you would go to your Grandpa for some help. To your dad grandpa was Ditka but to you grandpa is Lovie.

 

Once again thanks everyone for just letting me rant while watching Combine footage because as passionate as you all are I know that sometimes we need to look at the situation for what it really is.

 

Continuos sellouts, High Demand for tickets,Family owned Business and keeping our fan base intrigued(not happy) =Status Quo. Now what was Teddy saying last year?

[madlithuanian]

I've loved reading this threas as well!

 

The demeanor issue is one thing, but it's really football accumen. The stoics and screamers who were successful did things that were football savvy. They seemed to get good players. They seemed to develop second tier players. They made good in-game adjustments. They kept going to the well until it dried up. All the things our current regime seems to somewhat lack. JA doesn't seem to draft well enough. Smith and crew can't seem to develop anyone. Very rarely do we change something mid-game. And we stop running when we're successful doing it.

 

I think I've mentioned this countless times (and I apologize for doing so again, but here it goes again...), but it's not the stoicism that is the problem with Smith. It's all the above issues. The stoicism is just the crummy clothes someone wears when you already know they are useless. The clothes really don't make the man. But when you already don't dig the man, it's easy to dislike his clothes.

 

I make no bones about it... I pretty much expect the same as we've had from this regime. Lots of down and a tick up. Yet not enough up to go all the way. We're good enough to take advantage of the weak and kock off the occassional good. But in crunchtime, we don't have enough in talent on and off the field to make it happen right now. And with that said, my a$$ will be cheering for them hoping that I'm either wrong or that we get get lucky enough!

 

 

 

 

Guys this is all good stuff and if you really look at the history of the SB winners most of the fiery guys have one win and the stoic guys have multiple wins or losses (Sorry Bud Grant and Dan Reeves fans). Of the fiery guys with multiple wins Lombardi, Parcells and Jimmy Johnson come to mind. Marv Levy is they only fiery guy who reached multiple SBs and got no wins. The stoics include Noll who was a mean SOB according to Terry Bradshaw, Shula, Landry, Walsh, Gibbs, Shanahan and Belechick. Sometimes that steady demeanor does tend to make a team play steady.

 

Lets think about these guys for a minute. Hank Stram, Weeb Eubank, John Madden, Mike Ditka,Bill Cowher,Dick Vermeil, Tom Coughlin, Mike Holmgren and John Gruden. All of these guy did win a SB but in most cases they were all in the year that they won. Stram after getting embarrassed in SB one he went all in in SB 4 and basically was done after that. In most cases it was a combination of aging veterans losing their edge and players basically not being able to take those same ol' motivational tactics the very next year.

 

I have to face the facts ,back when I was going to elementary school(Grammar school way back when) I had a teacher that would whip you with a yard stick(36 inch ruler) if you didn't do your homework and your parents were on board with that and if it happened you wouldn't dare tell them because it may have resulted in more severe punishment. Let a teacher try that now and there is a law suit, a You Tube video and all sorts of exposure to something like that. Its just a totally different society that we live in now and guys who know how to psych players into doing their jobs are going to be more effective than a Mike Singletary whose act got old quick. If we look at the longest tenured coaches right now the stoics have the fiery out numbered. Its kinda like when your dad was being a jerk to you and you would go to your Grandpa for some help. To your dad grandpa was Ditka but to you grandpa is Lovie.

 

Once again thanks everyone for just letting me rant while watching Combine footage because as passionate as you all are I know that sometimes we need to look at the situation for what it really is.

 

Continuos sellouts, High Demand for tickets,Family owned Business and keeping our fan base intrigued(not happy) =Status Quo. Now what was Teddy saying last year?

 

[GrizzlyBear]

Mad I totaly get your point, however lets look at the changes Lovie made to increase teaching on his staff. Martz was classified as a teacher of QB's and a very good one. Marenelli is claimed to be the best DL teacher in football, Tice is claimed to be the one of the best line coaches in all football. Babich was already on the staff and is claimed to be a great LB coach. So saying that how could you even think your concerns were not shared by Lovie Smith and he changed to help in that area. Heck they even stopped Tice from moving on . I just feel all the past needs to be dumped in this situation. It is the 2nd year for this staff, Lets see how the newbs and 2nd year players respond to this system. This year should be looked at with fresh eyes, instead of the stale ones most here look through. JMHO

[lemonej]

I've loved reading this threas as well!

 

The demeanor issue is one thing, but it's really football accumen. The stoics and screamers who were successful did things that were football savvy. They seemed to get good players. They seemed to develop second tier players. They made good in-game adjustments. They kept going to the well until it dried up. All the things our current regime seems to somewhat lack. JA doesn't seem to draft well enough. Smith and crew can't seem to develop anyone. Very rarely do we change something mid-game. And we stop running when we're successful doing it.

 

I think I've mentioned this countless times (and I apologize for doing so again, but here it goes again...), but it's not the stoicism that is the problem with Smith. It's all the above issues. The stoicism is just the crummy clothes someone wears when you already know they are useless. The clothes really don't make the man. But when you already don't dig the man, it's easy to dislike his clothes.

 

I make no bones about it... I pretty much expect the same as we've had from this regime. Lots of down and a tick up. Yet not enough up to go all the way. We're good enough to take advantage of the weak and kock off the occassional good. But in crunchtime, we don't have enough in talent on and off the field to make it happen right now. And with that said, my a$$ will be cheering for them hoping that I'm either wrong or that we get get lucky enough!

Mad L you have me bustin' a gut LOL

I'll say this Lovie has no clue when it comes to offense and time management on offense, something I consider a big minus. The other problem is that his current OC sucks at the time management issue also. Just think of all the trouble this team had getting plays in and blowing unnecessary time outs. Why does this continue to happen to Martz when he is supposedly a offensive genius? He tries to get to cute at times instead of simplifying things. When Lovie finally got his thumb out his butt and told him to run the ball more, this team played a helluva lot better. As for player development on the defensive side without question he has made some guys blossom. Idonije for one has been here with Lovie from the begininng and from being a practice squad player to a starter says development to me. Lets talk about Tillman for a minute. He is hit or miss in coverage but when it comes to stripping the ball he is one of the best in the NFL and thats on Lovie. Guys like Hillenmeyer and Roach are 2 more examples of guys developed under Smith that had solid roles with this team, the problem is they are not 2nd tier guys they are 3rd tier guys who have developed into solid role players. The Toeinas and Idonijes are nice stories but this team needs the Cutlers,Fortes and Olsens to go to the next level.

[madlithuanian]

Glad to supply a laugh! (I know my horrible spelling these days should be it alone!)

 

lemonej, don't get me started on the ridiculousness of the constant timeouts on O! Seriously maddening! I'm not sure how great Izzy is. I'm sure much of his success has come from who's lined up next to him. But, he has done a satisfactory job. I've had my issues with HH. He's too slow. But he always played smart. And I'm not sure if Smith had anything to do with that. he seemed like a very sharp man regardless. Tillman has done well. But again, I'm not sure if that's just natural ability or coaching up. In fact, many have screamed that he should be a safety. Smith has developmed some. Just not nearly a respecatble amount enough. Your point on the Fortes, Olsens and Cutlers is spot on! And the Chris Williams's..etc!

 

Mad L you have me bustin' a gut LOL

I'll say this Lovie has no clue when it comes to offense and time management on offense, something I consider a big minus. The other problem is that his current OC sucks at the time management issue also. Just think of all the trouble this team had getting plays in and blowing unnecessary time outs. Why does this continue to happen to Martz when he is supposedly a offensive genius? He tries to get to cute at times instead of simplifying things. When Lovie finally got his thumb out his butt and told him to run the ball more, this team played a helluva lot better. As for player development on the defensive side without question he has made some guys blossom. Idonije for one has been here with Lovie from the begininng and from being a practice squad player to a starter says development to me. Lets talk about Tillman for a minute. He is hit or miss in coverage but when it comes to stripping the ball he is one of the best in the NFL and thats on Lovie. Guys like Hillenmeyer and Roach are 2 more examples of guys developed under Smith that had solid roles with this team, the problem is they are not 2nd tier guys they are 3rd tier guys who have developed into solid role players. The Toeinas and Idonijes are nice stories but this team needs the Cutlers,Fortes and Olsens to go to the next level.

 

[madlithuanian]

Doth give Smith too much credit! Do you think Smith brought those guys in? He may have leaned a bit for Martz...but I think Tice came from JA. One of JA's good FA moves! I know he's always wanted Marinelli. And Marinelli did a beter job with Smith D than Smith. Then again, he also had a healthy Urlacher and a new Peppers to play with.

 

I think Smith made the changes with a gun to his head. JA knew it. So, something had to be done. if Smith wasn't getting fired, everyone knew damn well Ron Turner was.

 

Stopping Tice was completely out of character, and it was a good move (or non-move). That is a serious element that deserves serious credit. By both JA...and I think Smith.

 

You can't dump all the past. I'm sure you know the old quote of not forgetting the past.... Too much failure at the end of the season was a replay of old issues. I'm not calling for Smith's head. I'm supporting him. But, I'm really weary.

 

 

 

 

Mad I totaly get your point, however lets look at the changes Lovie made to increase teaching on his staff. Martz was classified as a teacher of QB's and a very good one. Marenelli is claimed to be the best DL teacher in football, Tice is claimed to be the one of the best line coaches in all football. Babich was already on the staff and is claimed to be a great LB coach. So saying that how could you even think your concerns were not shared by Lovie Smith and he changed to help in that area. Heck they even stopped Tice from moving on . I just feel all the past needs to be dumped in this situation. It is the 2nd year for this staff, Lets see how the newbs and 2nd year players respond to this system. This year should be looked at with fresh eyes, instead of the stale ones most here look through. JMHO

 

[lemonej]

Glad to supply a laugh! (I know my horrible spelling these days should be it alone!)

 

lemonej, don't get me started on the ridiculousness of the constant timeouts on O! Seriously maddening! I'm not sure how great Izzy is. I'm sure much of his success has come from who's lined up next to him. But, he has done a satisfactory job. I've had my issues with HH. He's too slow. But he always played smart. And I'm not sure if Smith had anything to do with that. he seemed like a very sharp man regardless. Tillman has done well. But again, I'm not sure if that's just natural ability or coaching up. In fact, many have screamed that he should be a safety. Smith has developmed some. Just not nearly a respecatble amount enough. Your point on the Fortes, Olsens and Cutlers is spot on! And the Chris Williams's..etc!

Mad L I think you might have missed what I said about those guys being 3rd tier(IMO Scrap Heap or Waivers and UDFAs). Coaching these guys up to stay on the roster alone gets them some props but,like I said they are solid role players which means if someone comes along that the team thinks is better these guys will accept a lesser role without incident.

 

If I can remember this right Izzy was signed during the end of Jauron's last season to the practice squad as a project and the following year he was on the field in games with Chico as his DC and Carl Dunbar as his DL coach. If You watched any of the DL workouts at the Combine Dunbar was running the drills this year. He is as respected as Marinelli in some circles but tends to move around from team to team. For him to go from being an undrafted FA from another country to a starter in the NFC Championship Game says development to me. Okay I admit it I have a soft spot for the underdogs.

[madlithuanian]

Gtocha! Thanks for clarifying!

 

I like Izzy! To me, he's like Alex Brown. A good role player and fill in. He's just not an impact player.

 

Mad L I think you might have missed what I said about those guys being 3rd tier(IMO Scrap Heap or Waivers and UDFAs). Coaching these guys up to stay on the roster alone gets them some props but,like I said they are solid role players which means if someone comes along that the team thinks is better these guys will accept a lesser role without incident.

 

If I can remember this right Izzy was signed during the end of Jauron's last season to the practice squad as a project and the following year he was on the field in games with Chico as his DC and Carl Dunbar as his DL coach. If You watched any of the DL workouts at the Combine Dunbar was running the drills this year. He is as respected as Marinelli in some circles but tends to move around from team to team. For him to go from being an undrafted FA from another country to a starter in the NFC Championship Game says development to me. Okay I admit it I have a soft spot for the underdogs.

 

[GrizzlyBear]

Doth give Smith too much credit! Do you think Smith brought those guys in? He may have leaned a bit for Martz...but I think Tice came from JA. One of JA's good FA moves! I know he's always wanted Marinelli. And Marinelli did a beter job with Smith D than Smith. Then again, he also had a healthy Urlacher and a new Peppers to play with.

 

I think Smith made the changes with a gun to his head. JA knew it. So, something had to be done. if Smith wasn't getting fired, everyone knew damn well Ron Turner was.

 

Stopping Tice was completely out of character, and it was a good move (or non-move). That is a serious element that deserves serious credit. By both JA...and I think Smith.

 

You can't dump all the past. I'm sure you know the old quote of not forgetting the past.... Too much failure at the end of the season was a replay of old issues. I'm not calling for Smith's head. I'm supporting him. But, I'm really weary.

 

I see your cynical point regardless. To think Lovie made those moves with a gun to his head is little to much though. And to think he has no say in his staff is even more so. When he fired Turner and Harry Heistand Butkus and London were not renewed and thier contracts ran out. but no need to resign with them going after TIce and Martz.

Turner brought a boat load fop coaches with him so many had to be replaced and some were not. like Offensive assistant position Luke Butkus held no longer exists.

And Yes I get what your saying about the past b ut it does not have to be repeated. you learn from it, not live by it.

[madlithuanian]

Sorry, following this and the past few regimes has me as a cynic.

 

Smith is a defensive guy. So, I do honestly question how involved he was in finding all the O guys. I'm certain he at minimum, signed off on it. But, how much other than that is debatable. Not sure it really matters though... JA is also not an O guy. So maybe Martz and Tice just simply landed on their laps. let's not forget that people were not lining up for the job. We were spurned by numerous O and D prospects. Saying a lot about the perception of our management and HC...at least last year.

 

Your last statement is correct. However,it appeared to me, in our last game (our most important game), too much of his errant ways from the past came out in full force. Not adjusting the O or reigning in martz to run the ball more and believing that his guy (Collins) was better than Hanie. Both blunders in in-game coaching and personnell decisions. Something he's been guilty in the past of as well. He did seem to learn from his error in the regualr season and made changes. But in crunchtime, he reverted to his old ways. It's like a guy who's totally cool all the time, but when he gets drunk is an a$$hole. The drunk = pressure. Your true colors come out when your guard is down. Smith failed that test this past season. Will he fail again? I hope not. I fear so.

 

I see your cynical point regardless. To think Lovie made those moves with a gun to his head is little to much though. And to think he has no say in his staff is even more so. When he fired Turner and Harry Heistand Butkus and London were not renewed and thier contracts ran out. but no need to resign with them going after TIce and Martz.

Turner brought a boat load fop coaches with him so many had to be replaced and some were not. like Offensive assistant position Luke Butkus held no longer exists.

And Yes I get what your saying about the past b ut it does not have to be repeated. you learn from it, not live by it.

 

[lemonej]

Sorry, following this and the past few regimes has me as a cynic.

 

Smith is a defensive guy. So, I do honestly question how involved he was in finding all the O guys. I'm certain he at minimum, signed off on it. But, how much other than that is debatable. Not sure it really matters though... JA is also not an O guy. So maybe Martz and Tice just simply landed on their laps. let's not forget that people were not lining up for the job. We were spurned by numerous O and D prospects. Saying a lot about the perception of our management and HC...at least last year.

 

Your last statement is correct. However,it appeared to me, in our last game (our most important game), too much of his errant ways from the past came out in full force. Not adjusting the O or reigning in martz to run the ball more and believing that his guy (Collins) was better than Hanie. Both blunders in in-game coaching and personnell decisions. Something he's been guilty in the past of as well. He did seem to learn from his error in the regualr season and made changes. But in crunchtime, he reverted to his old ways. It's like a guy who's totally cool all the time, but when he gets drunk is an a$$hole. The drunk = pressure. Your true colors come out when your guard is down. Smith failed that test this past season. Will he fail again? I hope not. I fear so.

Mad L if I remember this correctly Martz was Lovie's original pick to replace Turner at OC but JA was not on board at first. The Bears also tried to get permission to talk to Tom Clements the packers QB coach and Jeremy Bates who is the OC in Seattle. Bates turned the Bears down and they were denied permission to talk to Clements. I also believe Tice after being relieved of his duties in Jax was picked up by the Bears in swift fashion. Am I high and incoherent about this ?

[madlithuanian]

Yeah, Martz I wasn't really sure of...

 

Although it did seem like we "settled" for Martz and Marinelli in their repsective positions. Tice was the ture find...and he wanted to come here!

 

Mad L if I remember this correctly Martz was Lovie's original pick to replace Turner at OC but JA was not on board at first. The Bears also tried to get permission to talk to Tom Clements the packers QB coach and Jeremy Bates who is the OC in Seattle. Bates turned the Bears down and they were denied permission to talk to Clements. I also believe Tice after being relieved of his duties in Jax was picked up by the Bears in swift fashion. Am I high and incoherent about this ?

 

[lemonej]

Yeah, Martz I wasn't really sure of...

 

Although it did seem like we "settled" for Martz and Marinelli in their repsective positions. Tice was the ture find...and he wanted to come here!

When Lovie first came here his first choice for DC was Marinelli but he was denied permission to talk with him by Tampa's management.

[clnr]

IIRC Tice was't fired from the Jags, he was promised by Del Rio that he could leave if/when he was offered an OL coaching position.