lemonej Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 This O-line debate has me thinking back to the days of when I first started following the Bears and the draft(yes they did have face masks lol) and my earliest memories date back to 1966 and with that being said the Bears have only had one GM since that time who was hell bent on developing the o-line. That was Jim Finks who was considered one of the best GMs in NFL history. Under his watch the Bears drafted 4 OTs number one(Lick, Albrecht,Van Horne and Covert) in a span of about 8 years. After he invested a number 4 overall pick in a little known RB out of Jackson State his first O-line looked like a rag tag bunch with at least 2 castoffs from the defunct World Football league,a FA from the CFL and 2 mid round picks. Anyone recognize these names Bob Newton,Noah Jackson, Dan Peiffer,Revie Sorey and Jeff Sevy? If that team had the exposure that the current team has, we would have been all over Finks.The staff and GM fell in love with the interior lineman Jackson ,Sorey and Peiffer( who battled knee problems constantly)and added 2 young OTs in Lick and Albrecht but, still they were never considered an elite group. This leads me up to the group he put together that I consider the best since I have been watching the Bears. After the Strike of 82 when the teams resumed the season Ditka decided to go wirh his rookie QB (1st rdr Jim McMahon) because of mediocre play from the veteran QBs ahead of him Vince Evans and Bob Avelini. The following season 83 he was considered the unquestioned starter and he lined up behind a line that looked like this: LT Rookie,LG Mid round draft pick,C undrafted FA,RG rookie converted from DL and a 3year vet at ROT. Once again this is another franchise pick lining up behind what looks to be an inexperienced bunch.That little known RB from Jackson State had a great season behind this group but the team still didn't make the playoffs going on 6yrs now. IMO that meant that this group needed some attention.Jim Finks was forced out and went to work for the Chicago Cubs So what does this dumb ass new GM do? He drafts 2 LBs one and two (Marshall and Rivera) and signs a draft pick(Thayer) who came back after signing with the rival USFL.So they add this other refugee to the starting OL and the QB doesn't finish the season due to injury and the team makes it to the NFL Championship game anyway because of a strong defense . So I know this GM will do something to protect the franchise QB in the draft. He does by drafting a big 300 pound DT out of Clemson,a DB,WR,a kicker in the 4th rd,DE,OT,RB,DT and LB.No help for the O-line,McMahon is gonna get killed.In TC our 300 lb DT collapses in a heap and our DC is all over him and the GM for not getting him a ist rd CB. The fans are predicting doom because this O-line of Covert,Thayer,Hilgenberg,Bortz and Van Horne was kept completely intack. What is Vanisi and Ditka doing? They suck. We were one game from the SB and we didn't improve an obvious weakness the O-line. 85 is going to be just like all the other years. Little did I know then that this group and terrible draftees that lost all but one of their preseason games would have one of the NFL's finest season's ever and have 4 of their terrible rookie class score in the SB. Butler,Perry,Phillips and Morrisey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Great post! Man, do I miss Finks! This O-line debate has me thinking back to the days of when I first started following the Bears and the draft(yes they did have face masks lol) and my earliest memories date back to 1966 and with that being said the Bears have only had one GM since that time who was hell bent on developing the o-line. That was Jim Finks who was considered one of the best GMs in NFL history. Under his watch the Bears drafted 4 OTs number one(Lick, Albrecht,Van Horne and Covert) in a span of about 8 years. After he invested a number 4 overall pick in a little known RB out of Jackson State his first O-line looked like a rag tag bunch with at least 2 castoffs from the defunct World Football league,a FA from the CFL and 2 mid round picks. Anyone recognize these names Bob Newton,Noah Jackson, Dan Peiffer,Revie Sorey and Jeff Sevy? If that team had the exposure that the current team has, we would have been all over Finks.The staff and GM fell in love with the interior lineman Jackson ,Sorey and Peiffer( who battled knee problems constantly)and added 2 young OTs in Lick and Albrecht but, still they were never considered an elite group. This leads me up to the group he put together that I consider the best since I have been watching the Bears. After the Strike of 82 when the teams resumed the season Ditka decided to go wirh his rookie QB (1st rdr Jim McMahon) because of mediocre play from the veteran QBs ahead of him Vince Evans and Bob Avelini. The following season 83 he was considered the unquestioned starter and he lined up behind a line that looked like this: LT Rookie,LG Mid round draft pick,C undrafted FA,RG rookie converted from DL and a 3year vet at ROT. Once again this is another franchise pick lining up behind what looks to be an inexperienced bunch.That little known RB from Jackson State had a great season behind this group but the team still didn't make the playoffs going on 6yrs now. IMO that meant that this group needed some attention.Jim Finks was forced out and went to work for the Chicago Cubs So what does this dumb ass new GM do? He drafts 2 LBs one and two (Marshall and Rivera) and signs a draft pick(Thayer) who came back after signing with the rival USFL.So they add this other refugee to the starting OL and the QB doesn't finish the season due to injury and the team makes it to the NFL Championship game anyway because of a strong defense . So I know this GM will do something to protect the franchise QB in the draft. He does by drafting a big 300 pound DT out of Clemson,a DB,WR,a kicker in the 4th rd,DE,OT,RB,DT and LB.No help for the O-line,McMahon is gonna get killed.In TC our 300 lb DT collapses in a heap and our DC is all over him and the GM for not getting him a ist rd CB. The fans are predicting doom because this O-line of Covert,Thayer,Hilgenberg,Bortz and Van Horne was kept completely intack. What is Vanisi and Ditka doing? They suck. We were one game from the SB and we didn't improve an obvious weakness the O-line. 85 is going to be just like all the other years. Little did I know then that this group and terrible draftees that lost all but one of their preseason games would have one of the NFL's finest season's ever and have 4 of their terrible rookie class score in the SB. Butler,Perry,Phillips and Morrisey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonej Posted August 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Great post! Man, do I miss Finks! I did this "tongue in cheek" to bring emphasis on how paranoid we have become as fans now in just a week plus of TC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Oh I got it...I just seriously do miss Finks! ...and it is good perspective. Sadly, not just the Bears, but many clubs would have blown things up far before their past due date. I did this "tongue in cheek" to bring emphasis on how paranoid we have become as fans now in just a week plus of TC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonej Posted August 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Oh I got it...I just seriously do miss Finks! ...and it is good perspective. Sadly, not just the Bears, but many clubs would have blown things up far before their past due date. I miss Finks philosphy more than anything else. The teams he built in Minny ,Chgo and New Orleans all had success because of what he believed in upfront first and the team will be good for the long haul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 So true! I miss Finks philosphy more than anything else. The teams he built in Minny ,Chgo and New Orleans all had success because of what he believed in upfront first and the team will be good for the long haul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonej Posted August 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 So true! Thanks Mad L. So many times todays NFL GMs forget what is the deciding factor in all games and that is the trenches.Not who is available for FA on other teams but simply the trenches. Andy Reid for all its worth has garnered most of his success because he believes in constantly tweaking his lines(OL and DL). He also takes chances on some players making good on their personal pledge to give their all for one season. The Gm of the Bears is being criticized for giving a slanted tryout to a guy his OC swears will do some big things.I feel that if Bill Belelichek signed Roy Williams, Gholsten,and Okoye no one would question it. I do ask though when is the last time he won with the great Tom Brady? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 I feel like 2 old codger talking about the game like Madden & Summerall! This game is so won or lost in the trenches! You can make due with decent players around those elements, see Hostetler, etc., but you either have to stop or create pressure. Sadly, Bilicheck gets a pass due to winning SB's.. I'd bet that if he didn't win all those SB's, he'd not only be questioned about it, there would probably be calls for his head. Just like Smith. Winning a SB simply gets you a TON of goodwill! Just ask any Ravens fan who lived through the entire tenure of Billick! (I just happen to know a few...) Thanks Mad L. So many times todays NFL GMs forget what is the deciding factor in all games and that is the trenches.Not who is available for FA on other teams but simply the trenches. Andy Reid for all its worth has garnered most of his success because he believes in constantly tweaking his lines(OL and DL). He also takes chances on some players making good on their personal pledge to give their all for one season. The Gm of the Bears is being criticized for giving a slanted tryout to a guy his OC swears will do some big things.I feel that if Bill Belelichek signed Roy Williams, Gholsten,and Okoye no one would question it. I do ask though when is the last time he won with the great Tom Brady? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonej Posted August 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 I feel like 2 old codger talking about the game like Madden & Summerall! This game is so won or lost in the trenches! You can make due with decent players around those elements, see Hostetler, etc., but you either have to stop or create pressure. Sadly, Bilicheck gets a pass due to winning SB's.. I'd bet that if he didn't win all those SB's, he'd not only be questioned about it, there would probably be calls for his head. Just like Smith. Winning a SB simply gets you a TON of goodwill! Just ask any Ravens fan who lived through the entire tenure of Billick! (I just happen to know a few...) That is when they were Browns'fans you mean. The only reason why he is considered a genius still is because of his future HOF player still on the roster Brady and going by why he got the Browns job a real weird offer/job from the Jets is because the only 2 players his devastating defense produced is Lawrence Taylor and Harry Carson who should never have seen the HOF before Dent as well as Howie Long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Bilicheck does get credit also for being a mastermind of the Parcells' defenses as well. It helped having won the lottery with Brady, but they had a good D, and a good OL, and great kicker! And they never trounced any opponent in the SB if I remember correctly. They barely won! But, winning is all it takes! And winning breed more winning. The opposite is correct too...just look at the Lions! I totally respected harry Carson...Carl Banks too. They played hard and mean. as a fan of D, I like that. But, Dent still should have gotten in before! That is when they were Browns'fans you mean. The only reason why he is considered a genius still is because of his future HOF player still on the roster Brady and going by why he got the Browns job a real weird offer/job from the Jets is because the only 2 players his devastating defense produced is Lawrence Taylor and Harry Carson who should never have seen the HOF before Dent as well as Howie Long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 This O-line debate has me thinking back to the days of when I first started following the Bears and the draft(yes they did have face masks lol) and my earliest memories date back to 1966 and with that being said the Bears have only had one GM since that time who was hell bent on developing the o-line. That was Jim Finks who was considered one of the best GMs in NFL history. Under his watch the Bears drafted 4 OTs number one(Lick, Albrecht,Van Horne and Covert) in a span of about 8 years. After he invested a number 4 overall pick in a little known RB out of Jackson State his first O-line looked like a rag tag bunch with at least 2 castoffs from the defunct World Football league,a FA from the CFL and 2 mid round picks. Anyone recognize these names Bob Newton,Noah Jackson, Dan Peiffer,Revie Sorey and Jeff Sevy? If that team had the exposure that the current team has, we would have been all over Finks.The staff and GM fell in love with the interior lineman Jackson ,Sorey and Peiffer( who battled knee problems constantly)and added 2 young OTs in Lick and Albrecht but, still they were never considered an elite group. This leads me up to the group he put together that I consider the best since I have been watching the Bears. After the Strike of 82 when the teams resumed the season Ditka decided to go wirh his rookie QB (1st rdr Jim McMahon) because of mediocre play from the veteran QBs ahead of him Vince Evans and Bob Avelini. The following season 83 he was considered the unquestioned starter and he lined up behind a line that looked like this: LT Rookie,LG Mid round draft pick,C undrafted FA,RG rookie converted from DL and a 3year vet at ROT. Once again this is another franchise pick lining up behind what looks to be an inexperienced bunch.That little known RB from Jackson State had a great season behind this group but the team still didn't make the playoffs going on 6yrs now. IMO that meant that this group needed some attention.Jim Finks was forced out and went to work for the Chicago Cubs So what does this dumb ass new GM do? He drafts 2 LBs one and two (Marshall and Rivera) and signs a draft pick(Thayer) who came back after signing with the rival USFL.So they add this other refugee to the starting OL and the QB doesn't finish the season due to injury and the team makes it to the NFL Championship game anyway because of a strong defense . So I know this GM will do something to protect the franchise QB in the draft. He does by drafting a big 300 pound DT out of Clemson,a DB,WR,a kicker in the 4th rd,DE,OT,RB,DT and LB.No help for the O-line,McMahon is gonna get killed.In TC our 300 lb DT collapses in a heap and our DC is all over him and the GM for not getting him a ist rd CB. The fans are predicting doom because this O-line of Covert,Thayer,Hilgenberg,Bortz and Van Horne was kept completely intack. What is Vanisi and Ditka doing? They suck. We were one game from the SB and we didn't improve an obvious weakness the O-line. 85 is going to be just like all the other years. Little did I know then that this group and terrible draftees that lost all but one of their preseason games would have one of the NFL's finest season's ever and have 4 of their terrible rookie class score in the SB. Butler,Perry,Phillips and Morrisey. This is a great post, and I realize you did it tongue in cheek, but there are obvious differences you've ignored and some things you've modified. First, and most important, the draft was a completely different animal back then. There were a ton more rounds and scouting was much more advanced. The odds of picking up a good player later were significantly better. Not to mention the fact that the other leagues were a much more viable source of quality players than today. Back then guys were going where they wanted to, where they thought they might get money, and the NFL wasn't the juggernaut it is today. The cream almost always rises today; back then it sometimes settled a little lower. Second, the Bears back then paid more attention to the OL than they do now. Four OLinemen in the 1983 draft alone! If JA had 11 rounds the Bears would still only pick up one guy for the OL. 1981 - T - 1st 1982 - T - 5th 1982 - G - 6th 1982 - T - 8th 1983 - T - 1st 1983 - C - 4th 1983 - G - 8th 1983 - G - 8th 1984 - G - 3rd 1984 - G - 4th 1985 - T - 8th That's 11 guys in 5 drafts! And if you ignore the 8th rounders, that is still 7 guys! Remember, you miss all the shots you don't take. Compare that with the last 5 years of the Bears draft and you get 6 guys...4 of which are 7th rounders! Clearly there was more attention paid to the OL back then. As for Covert,Thayer,Hilgenberg,Bortz and Van Horne, a lineup of 1,4,X,8,1 in respect to their round, you have to look at the aforementioend draft differences. But I do admit that there are similarities to at least the draft consistency of those players starting. Current: Webb, Williams, Garza, Louis, Carimi (7,1,4,7,1) Finally, this clamor for OL help is not just because of this year's training camp. This is something that has been mentioned for multiple years, since before Chris Williams was even drafted. Good thread start, and I really do appreciate the comparison on the stroll through memory lane, but you and I both know there are major differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonej Posted August 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 This is a great post, and I realize you did it tongue in cheek, but there are obvious differences you've ignored and some things you've modified. First, and most important, the draft was a completely different animal back then. There were a ton more rounds and scouting was much more advanced. The odds of picking up a good player later were significantly better. Not to mention the fact that the other leagues were a much more viable source of quality players than today. Back then guys were going where they wanted to, where they thought they might get money, and the NFL wasn't the juggernaut it is today. The cream almost always rises today; back then it sometimes settled a little lower. Second, the Bears back then paid more attention to the OL than they do now. Four OLinemen in the 1983 draft alone! If JA had 11 rounds the Bears would still only pick up one guy for the OL. 1981 - T - 1st 1982 - T - 5th 1982 - G - 6th 1982 - T - 8th 1983 - T - 1st 1983 - C - 4th 1983 - G - 8th 1983 - G - 8th 1984 - G - 3rd 1984 - G - 4th 1985 - T - 8th That's 11 guys in 5 drafts! And if you ignore the 8th rounders, that is still 7 guys! Remember, you miss all the shots you don't take. Compare that with the last 5 years of the Bears draft and you get 6 guys...4 of which are 7th rounders! Clearly there was more attention paid to the OL back then. As for Covert,Thayer,Hilgenberg,Bortz and Van Horne, a lineup of 1,4,X,8,1 in respect to their round, you have to look at the aforementioend draft differences. But I do admit that there are similarities to at least the draft consistency of those players starting. Current: Webb, Williams, Garza, Louis, Carimi (7,1,4,7,1) Finally, this clamor for OL help is not just because of this year's training camp. This is something that has been mentioned for multiple years, since before Chris Williams was even drafted. Good thread start, and I really do appreciate the comparison on the stroll through memory lane, but you and I both know there are major differences. Agreed and thats why I could only do it tongue in cheek. Now the Bears can't convert a Mark Bortz to o-line or a Big Cat Williams for that matter. Trust me I'm just as concerned about the lack of addition in the mix at o-line as the most critical on this board and in the media. All I know is that no matter what I post about it, it is what it is. BTW if Lance Lois is a starter against Atlanta my beverage of choice during the games will be a lot stronger than beer. During TC last year he was never balanced and fell on the ground repeatedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyBear Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Dont forget Bortz was defensive draft, He was moved to Guard and Played there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Agreed and thats why I could only do it tongue in cheek. Now the Bears can't convert a Mark Bortz to o-line or a Big Cat Williams for that matter. Trust me I'm just as concerned about the lack of addition in the mix at o-line as the most critical on this board and in the media. All I know is that no matter what I post about it, it is what it is. BTW if Lance Lois is a starter against Atlanta my beverage of choice during the games will be a lot stronger than beer. During TC last year he was never balanced and fell on the ground repeatedly. LOL. Great. I didn't know one of the guys being trusted to protect Cutler had on roller skates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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