Well guys, maybe it's just time to say goodbye to Martz

[jason]

But at least it's still an attempt at lemonade. Orange juice is simply out of the realm of possibility.

 

You can always add a boat load of sugar or vodka (max protect, shotgun, draws, etc...).

 

The question was partially in jest.

 

BTW - I'm pretty sure that...

 

Max Protect: Resulted in a TE getting burned for a hit on Cutler

Draw: Got stuffed

Screens: Got stuffed or ruined most of the time

 

Maybe Shotgun is the key?!

[madlithuanian]

All valid points.

 

Regarding Martz's plan...while I'm sure balance was in the mix...it's his respnsibility to actually watch what's going on and do something about it. He didn't. It's a clear fail.

 

Regarding the runs, it seems like we got more going to the edge than trying up the middle. Forte isn't Earl Campbell. He needs to go up the middle...but I think we need to try to do more sweeps more often. Just a casual observation... We've got to simply keep running.

 

Martz has his cards he's been dealt...some of which he asked for. He simply need to play his hand better. I am 100% certain ther are OC's out ther that would do better than he did last week. We'll see what he does now...

 

I'll chime in with some of the same.

 

1. It's not time to get rid of Martz. Not during the season. Bad idea.

2. Putting Tice in as OC would be stupid since he can't even get the OL to play above atrocious. Bad idea.

3. Martz needs to call more runs. Good idea.

 

I think balta hit on something though...did Martz really say before the game, "Ya know, these clowns can't pass block for shit. We should pass a bunch." Of course he didn't.

 

Forte had 9 rushes in the first half. There was one good play of 42 yards. The other 8 were: 1, -4, 4, 0, -1, 8, -1, and 0. With that kind of production I can see why he steered away from the run. The problem isn't more passes than rushes; the problem is that he didn't just steer away from the run, he swerved. Forte had one rush in the second half (0 yards BTW).

 

Again, with an OL that can't run block (see above) and can't pass block (see Cutler's ass meeting the ground), there aren't a lot of options for Martz. Yes, he needs to mix it up more. A safer option for Cutler's health is probably a run/pass ratio of 90/10, but that won't win games. I just don't know what ratio will work though. If Martz can count on less than 2 yards for 75% of the runs, then he eventually has to pass anyway.

 

[madlithuanian]

gotcha.

 

Didn't we send Lady Thor packing because Kellen was a shining satr of TE blocking? But, at least they gave it a shot. That was a fail on Davis' part. At least the play call set them up for success. The play of the player simply failed there.

 

Running plays get stuffed all the time. You have to keep at it.

 

Shotgun I think is a key. If we have to go into passing mode, we need some type of advantage. Not a barrage of disadvantages.

 

The question was partially in jest.

 

BTW - I'm pretty sure that...

 

Max Protect: Resulted in a TE getting burned for a hit on Cutler

Draw: Got stuffed

Screens: Got stuffed or ruined most of the time

 

Maybe Shotgun is the key?!

 

[nfoligno]

Some counter points.

 

One. While most of our runs were bad, at the same time, there were some good ones as well. How big of a run was Forte's 40+ yarder? Sure, we saw a number of zero or even negative yard runs, but we did in fact also have the big run. If you totally abandon the run, there is no chance for that big pop.

 

Two. While I won't pretend Cutler wasn't pressured or hit when we were running the ball, I will say he wasn't getting sacked, and the pressure was not as great as later in the game. Even if the runs are not working well, the simple fact that we are running the ball prevents defenses from simply teeing off on Cutler.

 

Three. Besides simply saying "we need to run more" I think it should also be pointed out how we run. As was already mentioned, we were seeing more success running to the outside. In part, due to their DL playing so aggressive, they tend to more often take themselves out of position for outside runs. Further, the more you run to the outside, the more you make the DEs hesitate or alter their attack. Doing this benefits Cutler when he does throw the ball.

 

Four. We have talked for years about this, but there are other things you can do to help the QB when he is getting beat up due to poor blocking. Many of us, especially after the first game, thought we would see some of these changes, but this last game seemed to throw away everything we knew.

 

4a - What was with the empty backfields? I mean, your 5 OL are struggling. The defense is adding rushers via blitz. Do we counter by adding extra OL? Hell no. How about using those big TEs more to block, or keep the RB in the backfield to help protect. We signed that big FB. Use him to block more. Sure, it's such a nice thought to have loads of weapons running routes, but if the QB is on his arse, how beneficial are those extra targets.

 

4b - In game one, we saw loads of short, quick step drops. Lots of quick slants and short hooks. In this last game, while Forte was used as a hot read, our WRs were working further downfield. Once again we saw a situation unfold where receivers are still running downfield with their backs to the QB when the QB is on the ground. What happened to the quick routes?

 

4c - In Denver, Cutler excelled in roll outs. In rolling out (planned roll outs, not just a scramble) you are moving the pocket and making it more difficult for the defense. By holding Cutler in the pocket, the defense knows exactly where their target will be. If you roll him out, the defense has to respect this and can't take the same line of attack every down. But no. We keep Cutler restrained to an area and let defenses tee off on him.

 

4d - How about some delayed handoffs. The defense was totally thinking pass all the way. Taking the snap and acting like pass only furthers the belief. How about some delayed handoffs?

 

4e - Why do we continue to put out TE on an island against DEs? Sure, we got a big TE that can block, but the best blocking TEs are still usually a mismatch for average pass rushing DEs. Rather than putting the TE on an island, why not have him help out the struggling OT? Our RT was awful. Can't the TE line up there and help? Why do we continue to put players in position to fail?

 

So I argue that yes, we should have run the ball more, even if it wasn't always working. I argue that we needed to call smarter runs, rather than simply more. Further, I argue that when we did pass, we were setting players up to fail. Blame the players for poor blocking or missing assignments. Fine. Yet what is the point of a coach if you aren't going to try and adapt. We saw NO defense destroying Cutler, but rather than do anything about it, once again the staff simply tells the players to do better.

 

I think the most shocking aspect of all this is that all our offseason moves seemed to imply we would run the ball more. We added a big blocking TE. We added a big blocking FB. Why are these guys running pass routes rather than blocking?

 

 

I'll chime in with some of the same.

 

1. It's not time to get rid of Martz. Not during the season. Bad idea.

2. Putting Tice in as OC would be stupid since he can't even get the OL to play above atrocious. Bad idea.

3. Martz needs to call more runs. Good idea.

 

I think balta hit on something though...did Martz really say before the game, "Ya know, these clowns can't pass block for shit. We should pass a bunch." Of course he didn't.

 

Forte had 9 rushes in the first half. There was one good play of 42 yards. The other 8 were: 1, -4, 4, 0, -1, 8, -1, and 0. With that kind of production I can see why he steered away from the run. The problem isn't more passes than rushes; the problem is that he didn't just steer away from the run, he swerved. Forte had one rush in the second half (0 yards BTW).

 

Again, with an OL that can't run block (see above) and can't pass block (see Cutler's ass meeting the ground), there aren't a lot of options for Martz. Yes, he needs to mix it up more. A safer option for Cutler's health is probably a run/pass ratio of 90/10, but that won't win games. I just don't know what ratio will work though. If Martz can count on less than 2 yards for 75% of the runs, then he eventually has to pass anyway.

 

[madlithuanian]

Very good points nfo...

[lemonej]

This team has added size to the o-line and the only way that will manifest itself is if they run the ball and stick to it. I'm talking 2 TEs and the 1 FB you have and whichever one of the WRs is the best blocker for a series in the 2nd half. Once the injury to Carimi happened it was time to adjust your thinking and obviously Omiyale was not someone you wanted on the field because if he was he would have been a starter. You can't allow a guy who has had limited reps be exposed by trying to ride a DE past the QB when he is rolling to the right. The Saints OTOH were chipping Peppers all game.

 

BTW for those of you who think Martz shouldn't be launched, I side with Big Daddy with the stipulation that that QB coach who is on the sidelines with Cutler call the plays because he knows the scheme,plays and terminology and tell him to utilize the run more.

[jason]

Some counter points.

 

One. While most of our runs were bad, at the same time, there were some good ones as well. How big of a run was Forte's 40+ yarder? Sure, we saw a number of zero or even negative yard runs, but we did in fact also have the big run. If you totally abandon the run, there is no chance for that big pop.

 

Two. While I won't pretend Cutler wasn't pressured or hit when we were running the ball, I will say he wasn't getting sacked, and the pressure was not as great as later in the game. Even if the runs are not working well, the simple fact that we are running the ball prevents defenses from simply teeing off on Cutler.

 

Three. Besides simply saying "we need to run more" I think it should also be pointed out how we run. As was already mentioned, we were seeing more success running to the outside. In part, due to their DL playing so aggressive, they tend to more often take themselves out of position for outside runs. Further, the more you run to the outside, the more you make the DEs hesitate or alter their attack. Doing this benefits Cutler when he does throw the ball.

 

Four. We have talked for years about this, but there are other things you can do to help the QB when he is getting beat up due to poor blocking. Many of us, especially after the first game, thought we would see some of these changes, but this last game seemed to throw away everything we knew.

 

4a - What was with the empty backfields? I mean, your 5 OL are struggling. The defense is adding rushers via blitz. Do we counter by adding extra OL? Hell no. How about using those big TEs more to block, or keep the RB in the backfield to help protect. We signed that big FB. Use him to block more. Sure, it's such a nice thought to have loads of weapons running routes, but if the QB is on his arse, how beneficial are those extra targets.

 

4b - In game one, we saw loads of short, quick step drops. Lots of quick slants and short hooks. In this last game, while Forte was used as a hot read, our WRs were working further downfield. Once again we saw a situation unfold where receivers are still running downfield with their backs to the QB when the QB is on the ground. What happened to the quick routes?

 

4c - In Denver, Cutler excelled in roll outs. In rolling out (planned roll outs, not just a scramble) you are moving the pocket and making it more difficult for the defense. By holding Cutler in the pocket, the defense knows exactly where their target will be. If you roll him out, the defense has to respect this and can't take the same line of attack every down. But no. We keep Cutler restrained to an area and let defenses tee off on him.

 

4d - How about some delayed handoffs. The defense was totally thinking pass all the way. Taking the snap and acting like pass only furthers the belief. How about some delayed handoffs?

 

4e - Why do we continue to put out TE on an island against DEs? Sure, we got a big TE that can block, but the best blocking TEs are still usually a mismatch for average pass rushing DEs. Rather than putting the TE on an island, why not have him help out the struggling OT? Our RT was awful. Can't the TE line up there and help? Why do we continue to put players in position to fail?

 

So I argue that yes, we should have run the ball more, even if it wasn't always working. I argue that we needed to call smarter runs, rather than simply more. Further, I argue that when we did pass, we were setting players up to fail. Blame the players for poor blocking or missing assignments. Fine. Yet what is the point of a coach if you aren't going to try and adapt. We saw NO defense destroying Cutler, but rather than do anything about it, once again the staff simply tells the players to do better.

 

I think the most shocking aspect of all this is that all our offseason moves seemed to imply we would run the ball more. We added a big blocking TE. We added a big blocking FB. Why are these guys running pass routes rather than blocking?

 

1-3: Same concept: run more. Maybe a few counters, a couple dive plays, and a few sweeps could have worked. Who knows? But I do know that all but two runs got stuffed.

4a: Agreed. I want to see the old-school Redskins max-protect. Send out 2 WRs (Knox & Hester), and keep the TEs as well as the RB in.

4b: What happened to the quick routes? Ask Bennett's ribs and Sanzenbacher's chest.

4c: Agreed. I'd like to see a few roll outs. Keep in mind, however, that most of the pressure is from the outside DEs blasting around the statues the Bears call OTs. That could easily lead to Cutler rolling into someone coming full speed. If roll outs are implemented, it's a good thing they'll most likely be away from Webb.

4d: Agreed, somewhat. This was tried once if I recall correctly, and it got destroyed because the middle of the OL got collapsed. Seeing a couple more would probably yield results.

4e: Disagreed. I'm not saying the TE should be on an island, but when you put a TE out there, surely the intention is not for a 1-on-1. It's up to the TE to establish, with his quicker feet, an outside leverage position so that he can take advantage of the potential double team. In this regard, the players simply have to do better. Martz has to have some players out in passing routes.

 

You're right in one regard though...this entire coaching staff appears to think telling the players "do better" is the same as coaching. Which is crazy since the majority of us have played, watched, and/or been involved with enough football to know that you don't keep banging your head into a 9-man front, and you don't consistently throw into a dime package.

 

What bugs me about the Martz offense is all the motion that appears to give the Bears no discernable advantage. I'd like to see less presnap motion if it's not gaining advantage and potentially causing confusion. I'd prefer they line-up with an identified purpose for execution.