BiPolar Bears Fans

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I think you're off here. I think Martz truly was the 4th or 5th choice as OC, and when all of the candidates ahead of him went elsewhere or stayed in their city, the Bears had no choice but to hire Martz.

 

Granted, it all seems fishy now because Martz has been trash since coming here and Lovie and him were in St. Louis together, but I truly think Martz was the 4th or 5th choice, even in Lovie's mind.

 

True and true...

[lemonej]

I think you're off here. I think Martz truly was the 4th or 5th choice as OC, and when all of the candidates ahead of him went elsewhere or stayed in their city, the Bears had no choice but to hire Martz.

 

Granted, it all seems fishy now because Martz has been trash since coming here and Lovie and him were in St. Louis together, but I truly think Martz was the 4th or 5th choice, even in Lovie's mind.

You're right it doesn't really matter but I am almost certain that the intial rumors had Lovie favoring Mike Martz initially and JA wanting Bates or Clements. There was also talk of the Colts WR coach and another guy with the Bengals. So if you are keeping score you were correct about how many candidates there may have been but according to the media outlets I chose to follow most of the candidates either declined to interview or were denied permission from their current club.This basically left Martz as the only candidate left. Kinda like Lovie and Jauron. Filene's Basement coaching clearance bin. I am convinced that I want a guy who runs the WCO to come in here while Cutler is still alive. It also would not affect Forte's value either.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

i have to disagree (i know, not a surprise but i have to call em like i see em). a "do-over" is very much needed and before this team again becomes a serious challenger to WIN a superbowl it is going to have to happen. this team IS like the lions of the past and maybe worse whether anyone wants to admit it or not. we need to burn it down and start over from the ashes. - Couldn't disagree more but that's the way it is.[/

 

an identity crisis does not explain ...The "identity crisis" I refer to is not much more than the Offense that Martz is trying to employ. Pass first and pass far. Not a Bears trait. The Defense has been effective just not recently. Ask any analyst and (if they know of what they speak) the Bears DON'T run a Cover 2 every time. They run variants of it and base a lot (not all) of there defensive scheme from it but they occasionally change it up. And for what its worth, the players make the Defense work not the coach. Unfortunately as of late the Safety "help" has been off or non-existent.

 

also to me, ownership is not a "right" or "privilege" whether it be a democracy or not. there are no requirements or standards for whether you will be a good owner of a franchise or not. it is just someone having enough money or luck by birth to buy into a mega corporation called the NFL. Which by the very definition makes it a privilege. A Democracy form of ownership is what you see in the Packers. The Bears is family owned...plain and simple which in turn defines the "right".

 

do the players like him? probably. but who is running this circus? it's lovie's job to win superbowls, not be every man's best friend. Take a look at my signature line sometime. We had a discussion last year or two ago about leadership as a Coach. And as is witnessed by what Mike Ditka thought, players decide their own destiny. The coach...coaches. I don't know that Lovie is trying to be anyone's friend. Coaching and mentoring are two very similar traits. In order to do this you have to be able to connect with your players on some level. If Urlacher and others thinks he (Lovie) does this well, it's good enough for me.

 

as it stands right now we are 3-5 years away from a superbowl WIN if we start a total rebuild right now ... "If" the team starts a rebuild right now and "burns it all down" then they are more than 3-5 years away.

 

on a final note... i hear everyone asking for toub to become either the OC or even HC. why?? What kind of experience does he need? He is innovative and pretty successful at what he does. Year in and year out he has been able to pretty much plug any player into their specific role and get them to produce. I believe, as I think a few others have pointed out, that D. Manning and Knox could have near as a fruitful career at returning as Hester has. Maybe not HOF worthy but still pretty good.

 

[lemonej]

If Martz had the talent he had in St. Louis here, he'd be a great OC. But in hindsite right now, I wish the Bears grabbed Charlie Weis when they had the chance. Hell, Sorry Charlie even stated that he had intrests in Chicago. You can all see how bad KC is doing without him this year.

 

Sorry Charlie sucked as a HC of Notre Dame, but he is an Offensive play calling God when he focuses on nothing but the offense.

Charlie Weis isn't that successful at Florida right now either. Some pro assistants are not suited for the college game as you stated he sucked at ND flourished at KC and now is not setting the world on fire in Gainesville. The same can be said for Wannstedt. He sucked as Pitt's HC and guess who is Buffalo's DC? The same also can be said that some college coaches should never leave their comfort zone for the pro game. Look how quickly a lot of them bolt after a short time. There are 2 guys in recent memory that made the transition successfully from college to the pros Bobby Ross with San Diego and of'course Jimmy Johnson at Dallas. Prior to the FA era doesn't count because the HC was lord and master then so that eliminates guys like John Ralston at Denver and Bill Walsh both who had stints at Stanford which has been one of the launching pads for college to the pros coaches see the previous guys I mentioned and add Dennis Green and Jim Harbaugh. The only reason Green wasn't mentioned previously is because he was a pro assistant that went to the college ranks to get HC experience until a pro team came calling.

[Mongo3451]

I think you're off here. I think Martz truly was the 4th or 5th choice as OC, and when all of the candidates ahead of him went elsewhere or stayed in their city, the Bears had no choice but to hire Martz.

 

Granted, it all seems fishy now because Martz has been trash since coming here and Lovie and him were in St. Louis together, but I truly think Martz was the 4th or 5th choice, even in Lovie's mind.

I think what's the most telling is that no one would come here because of the "lame duck" situation Lovie was in. Yet another gaff by the regime. Martz is the OC no other NFL team wanted. Hmmm, we nailed that one. Typical JA and Lovie being smarter than everyone else. Turner was a scapegoat and actually would have been a better coach for Cutler to thrive under. He had the same crap OL and WR's that Martz has today. The only difference is Cutler; which I believe Turner would have protected and used more to his skillset. Too bad he had to be one of the sacrificial lambs we have seen too many of. This years candidates are: Martz, Marinelli and Angelo. If Ruskell is our new GM, I will vomit.

[Lucky Luciano]

my post: an identity crisis does not explain ...

your replay:

 

The "identity crisis" I refer to is not much more than the Offense that Martz is trying to employ. Pass first and pass far. Not a Bears trait. The Defense has been effective just not recently. Ask any analyst and (if they know of what they speak) the Bears DON'T run a Cover 2 every time. They run variants of it and base a lot (not all) of there defensive scheme from it but they occasionally change it up. And for what its worth, the players make the Defense work not the coach. Unfortunately as of late the Safety "help" has been off or non-existent.

 

a pass oriented offense is “Not a Bears trait”? by that do you mean we should basically be a run oriented team with a strong defense? if so that is the mindset this franchise has had for nearly 50 years and it has failed miserably. yes, you do need good defenses but anyone who believes that multiple superbowl wins will result from a run oriented offense is clearly wrong and especially in this day and age.

 

I understand the cover 2 system does not run this set exclusively (more like 30-40+% of the time). I have gone over this with other posters in the past years in regards to the importance of key defensive players that are needed to make this system work at ALL and in truth we don’t even come close to implimenting it with the talent we have.

 

1. you need at least one good bump and run cover corner when running the cover 2 and the variations involved. if you don’t believe that then look at the tampa system with their all-pro/pro-bowl caliber CB ronde barber. he was a great cover man right off the LOS whether playing man coverage or running the cover 2. add donnie abraham a one time pro-bowl caliber player and that is pretty good company. compare that to anything we fielded since lovie arrived. bump and run coverage? hell, in our system we play/played our CB’s so far off the LOS it was a free-zone for any qb to get a sure uncontested reception.

 

for whatever reason people believe that you don’t need to be able to cover man in this zone type of scheme which is total nonsense. this is one reason I have been pushing to pick up players like charles woodson a number of years ago and this asumga (sp?) corner more recently.

 

2. you need at least one very good safety. think of john lynch. since mike brown’s injury riddled final seasons here we haven’t even been close to fielding one and it shows.

 

3. you need at least ONE killer DT to collapse the pocket with CONSISTANCY and give the qb nowhere to step up. throw in a pretty good tackle in mcfarland EDIT: along with sapp and compare it to what we have fielded since tommy harris started falling apart.

 

4. you need at least 1 very good DE to rush the passer. rice in tampa fit that bill. we had nothing to compare during lovie’s tenure here before pepperman.

 

5. linebackers… here we can compare with tampa’s hardy nickerson and derrick brooks.

 

sounds like you need a lot of very good players to make a cover 2 work? the answer is yes. we have never had half of the key players together at one time with the quality to impliment it correcty or efficiently. to top this off the cover 2 system has been figured out for years. it is not a mystery to offensive coordinators around the league yet we continue to draft and acquire players through free agency to run a poor man’s version of this which does not work.

 

my post: also to me, ownership is not a "right" or "privilege" whether it be a democracy or not. there are no requirements or standards for whether you will be a good owner of a franchise or not. it is just someone having enough money or luck by birth to buy into a mega corporation called the NFL.

your reply:

 

Which by the very definition makes it a privilege. A Democracy form of ownership is what you see in the Packers. The Bears is family owned...plain and simple which in turn defines the "right".

 

huh?

 

my post: do the players like him? probably. but who is running this circus? it's lovie's job to win superbowls, not be every man's best friend.

your reply:

 

Take a look at my signature line sometime. We had a discussion last year or two ago about leadership as a Coach. And as is witnessed by what Mike Ditka thought, players decide their own destiny. The coach...coaches. I don't know that Lovie is trying to be anyone's friend. Coaching and mentoring are two very similar traits. In order to do this you have to be able to connect with your players on some level. If Urlacher and others thinks he (Lovie) does this well, it's good enough for me.

 

players decide their own destiny and coaches coach? what the hell does that mean? lovie is mentoring? in what way? who has lovie made a better player through mentoring? daniel manning a safety who we let go when we are desperate to field one? urlacher and others thinks he connects with the players on some level? who cares? so did jauron. I want someone who can coach players to be better at what they do on the field.

 

whether blasphomy or not, I don’t believe ditka was a good coach so most of what he says I take with a grain of salt.

 

my post: as it stands right now we are 3-5 years away from a superbowl WIN if we start a total rebuild right now ...

 

your reply:

 

"If" the team starts a rebuild right now and "burns it all down" then they are more than 3-5 years away.

 

unless you believe the angelo, lovie, martz system should continue every single year you delay just prolongs the inevitable by 1-2 years. lovie and angelo are lame ducks and should have been fired at least 2 years ago.

 

in fact read the post from me to you on feb. 27th 2011: http://www.talkbears.com/forums/index.php?...amp;#entry89366

 

that pretty much sums up the problems we face for player needs in our near future with the exception of POSSIBLY T gabe carimi, DT paea and FB cluttz (sp?) not even counting the quality depth we surely don’t have.

 

my post: on a final note... i hear everyone asking for toub to become either the OC or even HC. why??

your reply:

 

What kind of experience does he need? He is innovative and pretty successful at what he does. Year in and year out he has been able to pretty much plug any player into their specific role and get them to produce. I believe, as I think a few others have pointed out, that D. Manning and Knox could have near as a fruitful career at returning as Hester has. Maybe not HOF worthy but still pretty good.

 

are you serious? you want to make someone our OC who’s ONLY qualification is that he is “innovative” on special teams with absolutely no experience on the offensive side of the ball at all? even as a head coach there is no possible way he will succeed without very good coordinators.

 

final note: I just want to add that some of the reasons for toub’s success in the nfl in chicago is due to an idiot GM who drafts are almost exclusively special team talent at best. add to that he actually aquired some top special team players in free agency like hurd and (can’t think of his name) the linebacker who went I believe to the ravens.

[jason]

a pass oriented offense is “Not a Bears trait”? by that do you mean we should basically be a run oriented team with a strong defense? if so that is the mindset this franchise has had for nearly 50 years and it has failed miserably. yes, you do need good defenses but anyone who believes that multiple superbowl wins will result from a run oriented offense is clearly wrong and especially in this day and age.

 

I understand the cover 2 system does not run this set exclusively (more like 30-40+% of the time). I have gone over this with other posters in the past years in regards to the importance of key defensive players that are needed to make this system work at ALL and in truth we don’t even come close to implimenting it with the talent we have.

 

1. you need at least one good bump and run cover corner when running the cover 2 and the variations involved. if you don’t believe that then look at the tampa system with their all-pro/pro-bowl caliber CB ronde barber. he was a great cover man right off the LOS whether playing man coverage or running the cover 2. add donnie abraham a one time pro-bowl caliber player and that is pretty good company. compare that to anything we fielded since lovie arrived. bump and run coverage? hell, in our system we play/played our CB’s so far off the LOS it was a free-zone for any qb to get a sure uncontested reception.

 

for whatever reason people believe that you don’t need to be able to cover man in this zone type of scheme which is total nonsense. this is one reason I have been pushing to pick up players like charles woodson a number of years ago and this asumga (sp?) corner more recently.

 

2. you need at least one very good safety. think of john lynch. since mike brown’s injury riddled final seasons here we haven’t even been close to fielding one and it shows.

 

3. you need at least ONE killer DT to collapse the pocket with CONSISTANCY and give the qb nowhere to step up. throw in a pretty good tackle in mcfarland EDIT: along with sapp and compare it to what we have fielded since tommy harris started falling apart.

 

4. you need at least 1 very good DE to rush the passer. rice in tampa fit that bill. we had nothing to compare during lovie’s tenure here before pepperman.

 

5. linebackers… here we can compare with tampa’s hardy nickerson and derrick brooks.

 

sounds like you need a lot of very good players to make a cover 2 work? the answer is yes. we have never had half of the key players together at one time with the quality to impliment it correcty or efficiently. to top this off the cover 2 system has been figured out for years. it is not a mystery to offensive coordinators around the league yet we continue to draft and acquire players through free agency to run a poor man’s version of this which does not work.

 

 

 

huh?

 

 

 

players decide their own destiny and coaches coach? what the hell does that mean? lovie is mentoring? in what way? who has lovie made a better player through mentoring? daniel manning a safety who we let go when we are desperate to field one? urlacher and others thinks he connects with the players on some level? who cares? so did jauron. I want someone who can coach players to be better at what they do on the field.

 

whether blasphomy or not, I don’t believe ditka was a good coach so most of what he says I take with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

unless you believe the angelo, lovie, martz system should continue every single year you delay just prolongs the inevitable by 1-2 years. lovie and angelo are lame ducks and should have been fired at least 2 years ago.

 

in fact read the post from me to you on feb. 27th 2011: http://www.talkbears.com/forums/index.php?...amp;#entry89366

 

that pretty much sums up the problems we face for player needs in our near future with the exception of POSSIBLY T gabe carimi, DT paea and FB cluttz (sp?) not even counting the quality depth we surely don’t have.

 

 

 

are you serious? you want to make someone our OC who’s ONLY qualification is that he is “innovative” on special teams with absolutely no experience on the offensive side of the ball at all? even as a head coach there is no possible way he will succeed without very good coordinators.

 

final note: I just want to add that some of the reasons for toub’s success in the nfl in chicago is due to an idiot GM who drafts are almost exclusively special team talent at best. add to that he actually aquired some top special team players in free agency like hurd and (can’t think of his name) the linebacker who went I believe to the ravens.

 

Great post.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Thanks for the link to our earlier conversations. I forgot how eloquent you can be. And rather than re-tackle this point by point, I'll try and clarify a few points then be done with it.

 

a pass oriented offense is “Not a Bears trait”? by that do you mean we should basically be a run oriented team with a strong defense? - Yes. When Chicago (as a city) gets to November and beyond an Offense predicated on the long ball will not work. Plain and simple. A West Coast style can thrive but not the Air Coreyell / Spread offense as I'm assuming your alluding to.

 

With regards to the Defense and "Cover 2" and all the points you made, I would thank it safe to say the Bears have concentrated on putting players into places they thought would work. Some do, some don't. Simply discarding all the current players as not capable is foolhardy.

 

huh? - The point being, as an owner of an NFL team you have the privilege to do all the things you mentioned. The fact that the Bears are family owned and by the same family that founded them, gives that family the right to be the owner in this case. In the case of the Packers they are owned by a group..the city of Green Bay rather than one entity. Whether each is right or better, I didn't really say. Just made the points I made.

 

players decide their own destiny and coaches coach? what the hell does that mean? - Overall, for a team to succeed, you have to have all (or most) 53 players on the same page to want to succeed. All the coach can do is coach what he is given to work with. And in some cases, mentor those he sees need it. I cannot go and list all the players that Lovie talks to each day during practice as I am not there. And since you used Manning as the lone example I can only assume you read the same stories I did about Lovie working with him. But given the Defense has been dominant for as long as it has and Lovie is a Defensive minded coach, the two have to be connected....which lends itself to this >>> I want someone who can coach players to be better at what they do on the field.

 

whether blasphomy or not, I don’t believe ditka was a good coach so most of what he says I take with a grain of salt. - Not sure who you qualify as a "good coach". Since he did most of what you consider to be successful.

 

are you serious? - Yes. And until you can define what or who you think is the best coach of all time then I really don't know how to counter your point. Toub would make a great OC plain and simple. I can only assume you would rather have another Coordinator that either isn't available or is available because he was expunged by another team. So as before unless I know what your qualifications are for the job, I can't really comment.

[Lucky Luciano]

a pass oriented offense is “Not a Bears trait”? by that do you mean we should basically be a run oriented team with a strong defense? -

 

Yes. When Chicago (as a city) gets to November and beyond an Offense predicated on the long ball will not work. Plain and simple. A West Coast style can thrive but not the Air Coreyell / Spread offense as I'm assuming your alluding to.

 

With regards to the Defense and "Cover 2" and all the points you made, I would thank it safe to say the Bears have concentrated on putting players into places they thought would work. Some do, some don't. Simply discarding all the current players as not capable is foolhardy.

 

1. have i ever said that an air coryell offense is the only passing system that i would want to be implemented in chicago? no. do i believe that that type of offense or a variation of it would work in chicago with a good OC and good player personnel? yes. for some unknown reason chicago fans believe that the only type of football that will work in chicago when it gets below freezing is a running pound the ground offense. this couldn't be more untrue.

 

2. would game plan adjustments have to be made in a high wire passing offense due to some week by week weather conditions that occur in winter months? absolutely. but to discount a passing offense altogether because we play in chicago in a cold environment is nonsense. first of all the entire NFL is now geared for a passing game due to rule changes and not to do so leads to a great disadvantage that i don't believe can be overcome if your goal is to win multiple superbowls. second, there are some pretty proficient passers and pass oriented offenses that made careers in cold weather venues. here are a few...

 

johnny unitis - baltimore; bart starr - green bay; brett favre - green bay; aaron rogers - green bay; terry bradshaw - pittsburgh; jim kelly - buffalo; fran tarkington - minnesota; ken anderson - cincinnati; boomer esiason - cincinnati; bernie kosar - cleveland; john elway - denver; len dawson - kansas city; drew bledsoe - new england; tom brady - new england; phil simms - NYG; eli manning - NYG; joe namath - NYJ; ron jaworski - philidelphia; donovan mcnabb - philidelphia; sonny jurgenson - washington; joe theismann - washington;

 

players decide their own destiny and coaches coach? what the hell does that mean? -

 

Overall, for a team to succeed, you have to have all (or most) 53 players on the same page to want to succeed. All the coach can do is coach what he is given to work with. And in some cases, mentor those he sees need it. I cannot go and list all the players that Lovie talks to each day during practice as I am not there. And since you used Manning as the lone example I can only assume you read the same stories I did about Lovie working with him. But given the Defense has been dominant for as long as it has and Lovie is a Defensive minded coach, the two have to be connected....which lends itself to this >>> I want someone who can coach players to be better at what they do on the field.

 

i can't think of a single instance where any player in the nfl does not want to succeed.

 

it IS the coaches job to see that they are all on the same page and striving to achieve the same goal in a professional manner. that is what he gets paid for. BUT... it is also his job to see that the goal he sets for his players is attainable and reasonable and to put each player, in relation to the whole, in a position he can achieve this goal either physically or mentally.

 

in other words if he doesn't have the player talent to run the system he wants or a key player in that system gets injured he HAS to be able to adjust his scheme/goals to fit the situation. he ALSO has to be able to adjust or revise the scheme he is implementing if it just plain does not work well enough to win or give the team it's BEST chance to win even if he HAS the players to run it. this holds true either during a particular game (game-day adjustments) or the overall way his system works (the cover 2 style of defense in lovie's case) during a season.

 

mentoring or coaching players to transition into the nfl from college and even take existing veterans and improve their mental skills and technique is very important for a coach. i just do not see any significant improvement this coaching staff has done to many, if any, players on this roster over an 8 year period. in many instances i see a regression in their performance if by nothing else than placing them in positions on the field that might not be their best position to play at their highest level.

 

for instance... we play strong safeties at free safety, we play free safeties at strong safety, we transition defensive linemen from tackle to end and back again. on offense we move guards to center, centers to guard, experienced guards on the left to the right and right guards to the left. we move tackles to guard, switch sides that they have experience with and on and on and on. john tait should be the poster boy on this. we took a very good right tackle and paid him a PREMIUM price and moved him to left tackle where he was average to mediocre throughout his career in chicago.

 

next... it is extremely important for a head coach each week to be able to focus his coordinators on not only the other teams strengths and weaknesses but importantly your own and make a gameplan on how to attack your opponent on both sides of the ball. he must understand the game day failings each week and find real solutions to correct them or at the least minimize them. yet we see the same problems crop up week after week in real game situations. in some instances we see it take 2-3 (or more) actual games to adjust to items that should have been in-game adjustments corrected on the fly.

 

whether blasphomy or not, I don’t believe ditka was a good coach so most of what he says I take with a grain of salt. -

 

Not sure who you qualify as a "good coach". Since he did most of what you consider to be successful.

 

with the quality number of players on that team he should have won at LEAST two superbowls. he had HOF, all-pro, pro-bowl players on both sides of the ball in abundance. yet his stubborness, poor coaching and lack of vision squandered maybe the best all around team talent in the history of the modern NFL.

 

if that’s not enough, look at what he did in new orleans. that should say it all.

 

are you serious? -

 

Yes. And until you can define what or who you think is the best coach of all time then I really don't know how to counter your point. Toub would make a great OC plain and simple. I can only assume you would rather have another Coordinator that either isn't available or is available because he was expunged by another team. So as before unless I know what your qualifications are for the job, I can't really comment.

 

1. the best coach of all time is not possible for me to determine. it leads back into era’s I know little about and never watched. but…

 

the best ‘head’ coach in the modern era of football to me (as much as I hate to say it) was probably bill walsh.

 

here are some coaches I consider very good to excellent… vince lombardi, john madden, joe gibbs, bill belichick, marv levy, maybe hank stram, tom landry, and (as much as I hate to say it) don shula with the dolphins and certainly NOT with the colts,

 

honerable mention: chuck noll, jimmy johnson, mike shanahan, bill cowher, jeff fisher, bill parcells

 

EDIT: after thinking about it i had to include mike holmgren in this list if you subtract his stint as a GM/coach. he was a very good coach and could put together some excellent coaching personnel under him.

 

of note: george halas. his coaching was mostly before my time although he did win a world championship prior to the superbowl era in 1963. in my opinion he would ‘mostly’ fall into the era prior to the modern NFL era and could be considered maybe the best of all time by others smarter or older than me in that category.

 

2. “Toub would make a great OC plain and simple” well I guess that is your opinion and you are more than entitled to it. I will just have to strongly disagree as to how anyone without any offensive coaching experience would make a great OC in the NFL.

 

3. I would “rather have” a new, good, head coach who could help in the choosing of that position along with our new GM. as far as the availability is concerned, if we as a franchise never see the quality in existing coaches to be hired in the marketplace but continue to hire the cheap, never been there or done that type of coaches they will NEVER be available.