Calling all Martz haters

[jason]

Tell me...please. He did what you want: run, run, run. 35 runs, 20 passes. And the Bears offense looked like garbage for most of the game and got completely bailed out by the D/ST combo. The OL opened up very few holes. Cutler dropped back 19 times, got sacked twice, and had pressure several times. What is Martz supposed to do? Please enlighten me.

 

Also, please be remotely consistent. You can't call for a 60/40 run to pass ratio, get it, and then act like Martz called some sort of horrible game. The Lions loaded up to stop the run. Period. You can only call so many screens and draw plays (pssst...those plays didn't work today).

 

This is a gameplan other teams will use going forward. They will load up to stop the run. They will dare the Bears to pass. And we have to hope the Bears' weakest point, the OL, can hold up long enough for Cutler to throw the ball.

 

So what is Martz supposed to do?

[Mongo3451]

Here I am! Honestly, that's not a good game to make that analogy. I'm sure it could have been more of a blowout, but the high road is good practice against a division opponent. Good game!

 

[lemonej]

Tell me...please. He did what you want: run, run, run. 35 runs, 20 passes. And the Bears offense looked like garbage for most of the game and got completely bailed out by the D/ST combo. The OL opened up very few holes. Cutler dropped back 19 times, got sacked twice, and had pressure several times. What is Martz supposed to do? Please enlighten me.

 

Also, please be remotely consistent. You can't call for a 60/40 run to pass ratio, get it, and then act like Martz called some sort of horrible game. The Lions loaded up to stop the run. Period. You can only call so many screens and draw plays (pssst...those plays didn't work today).

 

This is a gameplan other teams will use going forward. They will load up to stop the run. They will dare the Bears to pass. And we have to hope the Bears' weakest point, the OL, can hold up long enough for Cutler to throw the ball.

 

So what is Martz supposed to do?

The only problem with what Martz did was when the Bears were clearly up and in control of the game he was calling consecutive pass plays exposing Cutler to more of the cheap shots that both team dished out in the 4th qtr.I felt they should have run some of those plays just to keep the clock moving.The real problem was the team on the other side of the ball wasn't allowing any sustained success of any plays called. The only player on offense who seemed up for the challenge was Bennett.

[ChileBear]

The only problem with what Martz did was when the Bears were clearly up and in control of the game he was calling consecutive pass plays exposing Cutler to more of the cheap shots that both team dished out in the 4th qtr.I felt they should have run some of those plays just to keep the clock moving.The real problem was the team on the other side of the ball wasn't allowing any sustained success of any plays called. The only player on offense who seemed up for the challenge was Bennett.

What I saw in following the game (no video feed here so the NFL tracker) was the Lions doing a good job of stuffing the run. I got no problem with Martz's play calling yesterday. Tell, those who watched, did they cotinue to mix up the rollouts and chip blocks to help the protection?

Also, how long did Hanie get in for? Nice to see that in a game of cheap shots they did get Cutler out, but when?

[Guest TerraTor]

What I saw in following the game (no video feed here so the NFL tracker) was the Lions doing a good job of stuffing the run. I got no problem with Martz's play calling yesterday. Tell, those who watched, did they cotinue to mix up the rollouts and chip blocks to help the protection?

Also, how long did Hanie get in for? Nice to see that in a game of cheap shots they did get Cutler out, but when?

 

Chile..... Never have to watch game tracker again

 

www.p2p4u.net

 

oh.... Hanie came maybe last two drives of them...if not the last

[balta1701-A]

The only problem with what Martz did was when the Bears were clearly up and in control of the game he was calling consecutive pass plays exposing Cutler to more of the cheap shots that both team dished out in the 4th qtr.I felt they should have run some of those plays just to keep the clock moving.The real problem was the team on the other side of the ball wasn't allowing any sustained success of any plays called. The only player on offense who seemed up for the challenge was Bennett.

Cutler threw what, 6 pass attempts in the 2nd half?

[jason]

Cutler threw what, 6 pass attempts in the 2nd half?

 

Exactly. If there were 35 runs and 20 passes, it's pretty hard to say, "I would like to have seen a few more runs." At a certain point, you have to at least try to be successful and mix things up.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Well, like was said before this was a bad game to really gauge (overall) how effective the O was and in that same breath ..the playcalling. I mean you had two TDs from the D and another from ST so what else needed to be done? The Lions did put together some sustained drives late in the game but by then not a whole lot mattered. That and Stafford still turned the ball over. One of which was an INT in the endzone.

 

As far as Martz goes, he does seem to be adapting still. He's trying. Amazing what a talk from the HC and "getting the message" from the fans and media will do to someone's playcalling. I think what turns Martz off to people is when he is bound and determined to pass, come hell or high water and insist Jay do the 7 step drop. With things like screens, bootlegs/rollouts and more Forte it is clear that Martz is at least trying.

[lemonej]

One early play I didn't care for was the halfback pass he called.Let your best passer throw the ball and let your best RB run the ball.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Is this really the type of game where we should be talking about run/pass ratio? In the 2nd quarter, it was 20-6.

 

However, it's not the overall ratio of run/pass that bothers me for Martz. It's dips*** play calls. Obviously, they HAVE to pass sometimes even when they have a lead. But here's an example: early in the game, they had 3rd and 1. Here was my initial problem- where the hell is Barber? He shouldn't be on this team if he's not being used on 3rd and 1. #2- Martz calls some gadget toss play for a loss of 5. It's 3rd and f***ing 1. Run it up the middle.

 

Also, he ran a play where Forte was expected to throw it. This was right after Cutler completed 2 nice, crisp passes. I understand that if Forte tucks it and runs, he gains 8-10 yards, but why take the ball out of Cutler's hand there?

 

It's s*** like that.

[jason]

One early play I didn't care for was the halfback pass he called.Let your best passer throw the ball and let your best RB run the ball.

 

So no trick plays. Ever.

 

Sarcasm aside, in general I agree with you (QB throws, RB runs), but EVERY playbook on the planet has a few razzle-dazzle plays thrown into the mix. The Bears had a 7-0 lead when it was called. I can see that being a positive and a negative. For the former, if it works, it potentially breaks the game wide open. For the latter, if it fails then the game is tied 7-7.

 

I have a feeling that there is absolutely zero opportunity in which he calls that play and the majority of Martz-haters wouldn't throw a fit. It's like this:

 

Bears small lead: Too risky! We could lose momentum!

Bears small deficit: You don't need trick plays to overcome a small deficit. You stick to the offense!

Bears big lead: C'mon! Run out the clock! Stupid plays like that are just giving the other team a chance!

Bears big deficit: Great, now we're going to get embarrassed and the deficit will be huge! What a stupid time to take a risk!

[jason]

Is this really the type of game where we should be talking about run/pass ratio? In the 2nd quarter, it was 20-6.

 

However, it's not the overall ratio of run/pass that bothers me for Martz. It's dips*** play calls. Obviously, they HAVE to pass sometimes even when they have a lead. But here's an example: early in the game, they had 3rd and 1. Here was my initial problem- where the hell is Barber? He shouldn't be on this team if he's not being used on 3rd and 1. #2- Martz calls some gadget toss play for a loss of 5. It's 3rd and f***ing 1. Run it up the middle.

 

Also, he ran a play where Forte was expected to throw it. This was right after Cutler completed 2 nice, crisp passes. I understand that if Forte tucks it and runs, he gains 8-10 yards, but why take the ball out of Cutler's hand there?

 

It's s*** like that.

 

It may not be the right game to talk about run/pass ratio? Why the hell not? People are still criticizing Martz like he didn't call a heavy run-oriented game.

 

Easy answers to your questions...

 

On the first play you reference, the Bears ran the previous play right up the middle and it got stuffed. Also, the "gadget toss play" is a perfect counter to a DE in the 9-technique who is diving inside every play. It's just like calling a screen to the RB when the D is sending the house; it changes up their movement and makes them hold their ground just a bit so that future runs may catch the defender on his heels.

 

On the second play, it's already been addressed in another reply. That play gets criticized by Martz-haters in every single possible usage. There is no way that play satisfies you guys in any way, any game, any situation. Every playbook as trick plays; determining when to use them is the key. I happen to think using them when you have a small lead is a great time to use them, because they are meaningful. They impact the game. They break the opponent's spine. Doing it when up or down big doesn't make nearly as much sense. When exactly should a trick play be run?

 

I just think that some of you guys have an irrational hatred of Martz, and you let that hatred cloud actual football knowledge. Dude finally ran the ball an obscene amount, just like many have been crying for. And what happens? He still gets grief because he tossed in two unorthodox plays.

[lemonej]

So no trick plays. Ever.

 

Sarcasm aside, in general I agree with you (QB throws, RB runs), but EVERY playbook on the planet has a few razzle-dazzle plays thrown into the mix. The Bears had a 7-0 lead when it was called. I can see that being a positive and a negative. For the former, if it works, it potentially breaks the game wide open. For the latter, if it fails then the game is tied 7-7.

 

I have a feeling that there is absolutely zero opportunity in which he calls that play and the majority of Martz-haters wouldn't throw a fit. It's like this:

 

Bears small lead: Too risky! We could lose momentum!

Bears small deficit: You don't need trick plays to overcome a small deficit. You stick to the offense!

Bears big lead: C'mon! Run out the clock! Stupid plays like that are just giving the other team a chance!

Bears big deficit: Great, now we're going to get embarrassed and the deficit will be huge! What a stupid time to take a risk!

LOL reminds me of some of the posts during the games on this board a lot of pessimistic view points IMO.

 

If I can only find 2 plays that I don't agree with from any Bears' OC in recent memory then more than likely I am pretty happy with the way the game is going. Another impressive thing to see was Forte didn't try to force the ball to Davis.

[jason]

LOL reminds me of some of the posts during the games on this board a lot of pessimistic view points IMO.

 

If I can only find 2 plays that I don't agree with from any Bears' OC in recent memory then more than likely I am pretty happy with the way the game is going. Another impressive thing to see was Forte didn't try to force the ball to Davis.

 

Yep. That's my point. Martz had a huge lead, the D/ST was playing lights out, the gameplan was guaranteed to be bland and relatively unsuccessful, yet people are still complaining that he tossed in one or two unorthodox plays (the run play isn't really, but for Bears fans it's apparently crazy to keep a DE off balance). Two (read: one) unorthodox play in an entire game sounds like a pretty damn good gameplan.

 

I was also impressed by Forte's decision making to throw the ball away...something I'm sure he has been told countless times for when they actually run that play.

[madlithuanian]

Overall, I didn't have much issue with Martz last night. Thankfully, epic offensive playcalling wasn't needed in this particular contest.

 

The 2 big issues I had with martz yesterday was the silly gimmick Forte throw. (why must we always perform one of these horrid circus acts every week?) And the lack of running with Clutts as a FB. This one, I'm harping on pretty much every week. We seem to have far more success running when we have a FB. We had more than a few plays stopped in the backfield when there was no FB.

 

I don't mind Martz passing...I just don't want zero protect and see Cutler get killed. I just want results...whether it's running or passing.

 

Tell me...please. He did what you want: run, run, run. 35 runs, 20 passes. And the Bears offense looked like garbage for most of the game and got completely bailed out by the D/ST combo. The OL opened up very few holes. Cutler dropped back 19 times, got sacked twice, and had pressure several times. What is Martz supposed to do? Please enlighten me.

 

Also, please be remotely consistent. You can't call for a 60/40 run to pass ratio, get it, and then act like Martz called some sort of horrible game. The Lions loaded up to stop the run. Period. You can only call so many screens and draw plays (pssst...those plays didn't work today).

 

This is a gameplan other teams will use going forward. They will load up to stop the run. They will dare the Bears to pass. And we have to hope the Bears' weakest point, the OL, can hold up long enough for Cutler to throw the ball.

 

So what is Martz supposed to do?

 

[balta1701-A]

Overall, I didn't have much issue with Martz last night. Thankfully, epic offensive playcalling wasn't needed in this particular contest.

 

The 2 big issues I had with martz yesterday was the silly gimmick Forte throw. (why must we always perform one of these horrid circus acts every week?) And the lack of running with Clutts as a FB. This one, I'm harping on pretty much every week. We seem to have far more success running when we have a FB. We had more than a few plays stopped in the backfield when there was no FB.

 

I don't mind Martz passing...I just don't want zero protect and see Cutler get killed. I just want results...whether it's running or passing.

Disclaimer; I didn't see the setup on the Forte throw yesterday.

 

I don't dislike the idea of trick plays, but so far I haven't been impressed with Martz's setups for trick plays. If you're going to run the Wildcat, why waste the play by having the QB still on the field where he can get hit? Put another blocker in there.

 

Forte throwing the ball makes a little sense, if he's been heavily used on the ground and you've got the entire defense keying on stopping him, but whether it will work depends on how it is sold. I think that's been Martz's bigest weakness, putting together a trick play that isn't some long, drawn out, obvious thing that the defense sees through.

[madlithuanian]

No trick plays!

 

I'd be more OK with it, if one over the past 4 years actually worked. We try every time, and the results very from no gain to loss.

 

We are just not good at being tricky except with Special Teams....

 

I give Toub the greenlight to be tricky...but that's it!

 

 

 

So no trick plays. Ever.

 

Sarcasm aside, in general I agree with you (QB throws, RB runs), but EVERY playbook on the planet has a few razzle-dazzle plays thrown into the mix. The Bears had a 7-0 lead when it was called. I can see that being a positive and a negative. For the former, if it works, it potentially breaks the game wide open. For the latter, if it fails then the game is tied 7-7.

 

I have a feeling that there is absolutely zero opportunity in which he calls that play and the majority of Martz-haters wouldn't throw a fit. It's like this:

 

Bears small lead: Too risky! We could lose momentum!

Bears small deficit: You don't need trick plays to overcome a small deficit. You stick to the offense!

Bears big lead: C'mon! Run out the clock! Stupid plays like that are just giving the other team a chance!

Bears big deficit: Great, now we're going to get embarrassed and the deficit will be huge! What a stupid time to take a risk!

 

[madlithuanian]

I just contend that he/we aren't good at it. Let's stick to what we're good at.

 

 

 

Disclaimer; I didn't see the setup on the Forte throw yesterday.

 

I don't dislike the idea of trick plays, but so far I haven't been impressed with Martz's setups for trick plays. If you're going to run the Wildcat, why waste the play by having the QB still on the field where he can get hit? Put another blocker in there.

 

Forte throwing the ball makes a little sense, if he's been heavily used on the ground and you've got the entire defense keying on stopping him, but whether it will work depends on how it is sold. I think that's been Martz's bigest weakness, putting together a trick play that isn't some long, drawn out, obvious thing that the defense sees through.

 

[ChileBear]

Chile..... Never have to watch game tracker again

 

www.p2p4u.net

 

oh.... Hanie came maybe last two drives of them...if not the last

Thanks Terra, I'll try it next time.

[GakMan23]

My biggest problem is it again took him almost 4 weeks to realize that the OL wasn't good enough to give Cutler time for 7 step drops and that it was going to get him killed.

[BigDaddy]

Probably the most valid point regarding Martz to date. And why the hell isn't Cutler rolling out more? This offensive line was OVERMATCHED against Detroit just like 99.5% of the world knew it would be and Martz did nothing to make Cutler a more dangerous weapon. Keeping Cutler mobile plays to his strength. Confining him in a pocket only exposes him and Martz should have figured that out by now. He keeps trying to prove his way is the right way.

 

Mike Martz biggest problem is that he once caught lightening in a bottle with the Rams. Jupiter aligned with Mars to create Kurt Warner, Isaac Bruce, Marshall Faulk and Torry Holt, not to mention help from Ricky Proehl. He thinks his playcalling was what made them what they were. You want to look for the reason the Rams fizzled out, I bet you'll find Maike Martz right in the thick of it. He just doesn't seem to get that HE is his own worst enemy. People are showing him the way and he keeps trying to prove them wrong. His gameplan against Philly was perfect. Too bad he probably had to be threatened to put it together. He is the posterchild for inconsistency. He's got a QB with a stronger arm, more intelligence and who is a much better athlete than Warner was and he is wasting him. I also believe if he had opened his mouth about the NEED for WRs that we might actually have a playmaker or two but no, he was out to prove he could do more with less. Not a very bright gamble. He could be an offensive genius but he keeps shooting himself in the foot. He is NEVER EVER EVER going to be a HC again. He is not capable of managing that many phases of the game but he could be the greatest OC the game has ever seen if he'd just get out of his own way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My biggest problem is it again took him almost 4 weeks to realize that the OL wasn't good enough to give Cutler time for 7 step drops and that it was going to get him killed.

 

[balta1701-A]

Probably the most valid point regarding Martz to date. And why the hell isn't Cutler rolling out more? This offensive line was OVERMATCHED against Detroit just like 99.5% of the world knew it would be and Martz did nothing to make Cutler a more dangerous weapon. Keeping Cutler mobile plays to his strength. Confining him in a pocket only exposes him and Martz should have figured that out by now. He keeps trying to prove his way is the right way.

The problem is...Cutler puts up better numbers rolling out, but that's the case because Cutler's mechanics in the pocket get sloppy. Cutler moving out of the pocket on occasion is fine, but with his arm strength, Cutler ought to be able to mold himself into a better pocket passer than what we've seen so far.

[Grouchy Bear]

Tell me...please. He did what you want: run, run, run. 35 runs, 20 passes. And the Bears offense looked like garbage for most of the game and got completely bailed out by the D/ST combo. The OL opened up very few holes. Cutler dropped back 19 times, got sacked twice, and had pressure several times. What is Martz supposed to do? Please enlighten me.

 

Also, please be remotely consistent. You can't call for a 60/40 run to pass ratio, get it, and then act like Martz called some sort of horrible game. The Lions loaded up to stop the run. Period. You can only call so many screens and draw plays (pssst...those plays didn't work today).

 

This is a gameplan other teams will use going forward. They will load up to stop the run. They will dare the Bears to pass. And we have to hope the Bears' weakest point, the OL, can hold up long enough for Cutler to throw the ball.

 

So what is Martz supposed to do?

 

 

 

WOW ! Hate is a pretty strong word Jason . I think some times Martz gets caught up in the game and actually forgets what kind of players he has and what their limitations are. It's has to start with game planning. Since the offense has changed direction of how it wants to attack but still keep defenses on it's heels. Would it be so bad to give some leeway to Jay if in he can check out some plays (audible ). It seems Jay is comfortable on how Martz wants to attack.

 

Would it not be nice to see a no huddle set of series to throw off the defense ( especially when were playing team with a blitzing D when needed ). I don't know about you but for me I would never take out Bennett, he seems to be on the same wave length as Jay and this will help in an audible let alone he is the teams best receiver. Also I would not mind to see more play action passes when we go to a two back set (Clutts ).

 

Little things :

 

1# Doesn't bother you when were on a good drive and we have to stop and take a timeout because of the time clock. Some may say that's because of technical difficulties but when Jay is motioning his hands towards the sideline to hurry up that is not good. This has been a season long problem.

 

 

2# Scrap the the plays that doesn't involve Jay behind center.

 

3# no reverses please .

 

4# I liked the forte option pass but put somebody different on the receiving end. Davis is way to inconsistent.

 

[jason]

WOW ! Hate is a pretty strong word Jason . I think some times Martz gets caught up in the game and actually forgets what kind of players he has and what their limitations are. It's has to start with game planning. Since the offense has changed direction of how it wants to attack but still keep defenses on it's heels. Would it be so bad to give some leeway to Jay if in he can check out some plays (audible ). It seems Jay is comfortable on how Martz wants to attack.

 

Would it not be nice to see a no huddle set of series to throw off the defense ( especially when were playing team with a blitzing D when needed ). I don't know about you but for me I would never take out Bennett, he seems to be on the same wave length as Jay and this will help in an audible let alone he is the teams best receiver. Also I would not mind to see more play action passes when we go to a two back set (Clutts ).

 

Little things :

 

1# Doesn't bother you when were on a good drive and we have to stop and take a timeout because of the time clock. Some may say that's because of technical difficulties but when Jay is motioning his hands towards the sideline to hurry up that is not good. This has been a season long problem.

 

 

2# Scrap the the plays that doesn't involve Jay behind center.

 

3# no reverses please .

 

4# I liked the forte option pass but put somebody different on the receiving end. Davis is way to inconsistent.

 

I'll respond in list format to make it easy.

 

1. I think Martz actually gameplans well, and has good balance, but there are plays that just don't work because of player deficiencies. Naturally this leads to adjustments and problems.

2. I agree with the thoughts on audibles, but more than one expert of this offense says they have audibles, but they are simply called something else. I can't recall at the current time, but it comes down to having options.

3. I hate the time mismanagement problems. But I don't know exactly who or what is causing the delays. If we ever conclusively find out, I'll be shocked.

4. Agreed about Jay as WR during Wildcat. If using the Wildcat, bring in an extra WR.

5. I don't have a problem with Davis on the HB-pass play. The TE is often open on misdirection plays (i.e. rollouts, HB-pass, etc.)