Martz chucks players under the bus...

[madlithuanian]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/...ecution-issues/

[Doug Plank]

I'll grant you, he makes some goofy calls. The throwback screen, IMO, was not one of them. Hanie failed to read the defense and compounded the situation by throwing the ball anyway when it was clear there was no play.

 

Everyone's quick to bail out Hanie and forgive his performance but keep in mind this guy is paid sweet $ to be prepared at any moment to step in and offer at least adequate leadership on offense. He failed, miserably. We're deluded by a nice effort in last year's championship game, even though he threw it right into a lineman's hands when he had Hester coming across the middle with no one near him for miles. But that's beating a dead whore; that team was destined to win.

 

For all his head-scratching calls, Martz has still been the best offensive coordinator the Bears have had in a long time. And it's worth considering another quarterback's opinion of that play.

 

Miller

[madlithuanian]

I'm sorry, I just plain disagree. The play call at that point was a run. You have a young QB that's been struggling all game. You are in position to take the lead with a FG. You simply run the ball.

 

The playcall would be more than fine if an experienced QB were under center. Hanie is not that. Did the players both it? Yeah, I think so. But that play is not necessary at that point in the game.

 

I'm honestly not sure anyone's bailing Caleb out. He cost us the game. But, it's up to the coaches to put him in the best position to win, and that playcall did not do that. If you don't think Hanie's any good, rest that blame at Angelo's doorstep. But, given the hand they got, the coaching staff did not make the most of it.

 

Regardless of how good he is compared to the complete clowns that have been OC's for the Bears...he's still making too many mistakes. We could be jumping out of the frypan into the fire if Martz does not stay...but it appears to be headed that way nonetheless.

 

 

 

I'll grant you, he makes some goofy calls. The throwback screen, IMO, was not one of them. Hanie failed to read the defense and compounded the situation by throwing the ball anyway when it was clear there was no play.

 

Everyone's quick to bail out Hanie and forgive his performance but keep in mind this guy is paid sweet $ to be prepared at any moment to step in and offer at least adequate leadership on offense. He failed, miserably. We're deluded by a nice effort in last year's championship game, even though he threw it right into a lineman's hands when he had Hester coming across the middle with no one near him for miles. But that's beating a dead whore; that team was destined to win.

 

For all his head-scratching calls, Martz has still been the best offensive coordinator the Bears have had in a long time. And it's worth considering another quarterback's opinion of that play.

 

Miller

 

[selection7]

IMO, the key is how tough a read...combined with how high the risk..that play was. Jim Miller didn't seem to think it was a tough read. I don't really know.

 

Also IMO, 2nd and 1 is a great throw down if you find the right play (for example, I like it when the RBs land inches short of a first down on a first down run...rather than getting one more yard). If you don't get it, you get another try, and even if you fail then, you still get a FG opportunity. Though Marion was playing well while Hanie was struggling, so yeah, sometimes it's best not to get too cute. And obviously Curry was ready for the play, so Martz failed to pick a play that would surprise them. At the time, I felt like Hanie got rattled and made a hasty decision to force the pass.

[Mongo3451]

I'm sorry, I just plain disagree. The play call at that point was a run. You have a young QB that's been struggling all game. You are in position to take the lead with a FG. You simply run the ball.

 

The playcall would be more than fine if an experienced QB were under center. Hanie is not that. Did the players both it? Yeah, I think so. But that play is not necessary at that point in the game.

 

I'm honestly not sure anyone's bailing Caleb out. He cost us the game. But, it's up to the coaches to put him in the best position to win, and that playcall did not do that. If you don't think Hanie's any good, rest that blame at Angelo's doorstep. But, given the hand they got, the coaching staff did not make the most of it.

 

Regardless of how good he is compared to the complete clowns that have been OC's for the Bears...he's still making too many mistakes. We could be jumping out of the frypan into the fire if Martz does not stay...but it appears to be headed that way nonetheless.

This is my exact problem with Martz. First off, he still thinks he is smarter than everyone else. Even if he is, he needs to dummy it down for the personnel he has. I said before he got hired, that he gets quarterbacks killed and is a stubborn egomaniac. I don't trust him and never will. I'd prefer he find a new home. A new offensive coordinator will save Cutler's career. Three years of Martz has done squat. Jason?

[mondonico]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/...ecution-issues/

 

 

“I’ve done that for 20 years" Gee do you think maybe the other team might know that.

 

But that's not the real problem of his play calling for the whole 2nd qrt. IMO Your off. has had crap field pos. all of the first half. I don't think they ever started beyond the 20? I'm sorry, they started one drive at their own 23! You finally get the ball around the Oakland 35 with about 3 minutes left. Why not run the ball with Barber and get the off. line into a little rhythm of down field run blocking. A chance to put the Raiders on their heels a little before the half and give the off. line a little momentum along with Hanie. They were knocking the Raiders back earlier with straight ahead running between the tackles. If that doesn't work throw a screen, the normal kind, or play action, or a quick slant if you really need to for a first down. Low reward but low risk. Try and get one 1st down or just take some time off the clock and try a field goal. But no, he calls 4 passes out of 5 plays and then calls a reverse screen that gets tipped by a player who said he knew the play they were running from seeing the formation while watching tapes. But he is smarter then me. He helped win a Super Bowl. I've never been to one.

 

The Raiders were beatable Sunday and my first blame goes to Martz. IMHO

[madlithuanian]

Well said.

 

IMO, the key is how tough a read...combined with how high the risk..that play was. Jim Miller didn't seem to think it was a tough read. I don't really know.

 

Also IMO, 2nd and 1 is a great throw down if you find the right play (for example, I like it when the RBs land inches short of a first down on a first down run...rather than getting one more yard). If you don't get it, you get another try, and even if you fail then, you still get a FG opportunity. Though Marion was playing well while Hanie was struggling, so yeah, sometimes it's best not to get too cute. And obviously Curry was ready for the play, so Martz failed to pick a play that would surprise them. At the time, I felt like Hanie got rattled and made a hasty decision to force the pass.

 

[azbearsfan]

I'll grant you, he makes some goofy calls. The throwback screen, IMO, was not one of them. Hanie failed to read the defense and compounded the situation by throwing the ball anyway when it was clear there was no play.

 

Everyone's quick to bail out Hanie and forgive his performance but keep in mind this guy is paid sweet $ to be prepared at any moment to step in and offer at least adequate leadership on offense. He failed, miserably. We're deluded by a nice effort in last year's championship game, even though he threw it right into a lineman's hands when he had Hester coming across the middle with no one near him for miles. But that's beating a dead whore; that team was destined to win.

 

For all his head-scratching calls, Martz has still been the best offensive coordinator the Bears have had in a long time. And it's worth considering another quarterback's opinion of that play.

 

Miller

 

 

Actually, this is the only season Martzball has been statistically better than Ron Turner's offense. And remember, thats with the coaches having to reel him in and not really run his offense. So this begs the question, if Martz has to not run his offense to be successful, why is he here?

[Doug Plank]

Actually, this is the only season Martzball has been statistically better than Ron Turner's offense. And remember, thats with the coaches having to reel him in and not really run his offense. So this begs the question, if Martz has to not run his offense to be successful, why is he here?

I think the question is how much MORE successful would he be if he had the offensive personnel to truly run his system? A true #1 receiver, for starters, and an offensive line that was more than a patchwork. Just think if he didn't have to abandon and adjust so many schemes just to provide protection for Jay. This organization is still crawling out of the offensive stone age. But if you think Turner was a better option...which Turner are you referring to? The one from the 90s or the more recent incarnation? He had one season (2006) with a 26.7 ppg avg., the same that Martz has now in his 2nd season.

[madlithuanian]

That's like saying if I had a Ferrari I would have won the race. But, you have a Carolla. You aren't getting a Ferrari. Make the most of the Carolla. Put a better engine in, etc...

 

We all can blame JA for the lack of talent, but it is what it is. You must make the most of it. Martz only seemed to adjust to it after numerous attempts believing he had a Ferarri...

 

I think the question is how much MORE successful would he be if he had the offensive personnel to truly run his system? A true #1 receiver, for starters, and an offensive line that was more than a patchwork. Just think if he didn't have to abandon and adjust so many schemes just to provide protection for Jay. This organization is still crawling out of the offensive stone age.

 

[azbearsfan]

I think the question is how much MORE successful would he be if he had the offensive personnel to truly run his system? A true #1 receiver, for starters, and an offensive line that was more than a patchwork. Just think if he didn't have to abandon and adjust so many schemes just to provide protection for Jay. This organization is still crawling out of the offensive stone age. But if you think Turner was a better option...which Turner are you referring to? The one from the 90s or the more recent incarnation? He had one season (2006) with a 26.7 ppg avg., the same that Martz has now in his 2nd season.

 

 

No, thats not the question, because these Bears dont have time for him to find Orlando Pace, Kurt Warner, MArshall Faulk, Issac Bruce, etc.

 

Mad makes a great point. A good coordinator molds the offense to the players he has. A good coordinator doesn't have to get sat down and lectured for the second year in a row by his defensive minded head coach, about what he needs to do to have a successful offense.

 

Again, if Martz can't even be successful running his offense, then we dont need him.

[jason]

This is my exact problem with Martz. First off, he still thinks he is smarter than everyone else. Even if he is, he needs to dummy it down for the personnel he has. I said before he got hired, that he gets quarterbacks killed and is a stubborn egomaniac. I don't trust him and never will. I'd prefer he find a new home. A new offensive coordinator will save Cutler's career. Three years of Martz has done squat. Jason?

 

My answer to all of this is simple.

 

I believe the play was a good play that was poorly executed. I've stated this already. Hanie made an iffy throw, Davis didn't meet the ball, and Webb completely whiffed on a blocking assignment that had to be his. Further, the situation lends itself perfectly for a play like that. 2nd and short is a down you can take a chance because you have 3rd and short if it fails. Jim Miller thought it was a good call. So did others. Hell, most of this board liked it early in the year in nearly identical situations. I just think that no matter what Martz does, people will irrationally hate him. And the reason why is this offense is not set up for success thanks to JA.

 

The OL is still bad. It's still the #1 priority, IMO. Even with improvements, it's not good. The QB gets pressured way too often on simple 3 and 5 step drops, much less 7 step drops. And the OL doesn't open holes for the running game very consistently either. Thankfully they do open gaping holes on occasion, which has led to much of the ground game's success. Yes, the WRs are lacking, but this is one of those back-and-forth discussions everyone on this board, and I imagine the other Chicago Bears boards, will continue to have: does OL benefit WR more than WR benefits OL? I say yes. Put in good OL, and the WRs on the Bears are suddenly putting up good/great stats. Just look at the games that Cutler had time; the WRs were lethal. But that doesn't happen nearly enough.

 

End result: 3 years with Martz and the offense hasn't done much. But I can't blame him that much when he's given a weak OL and weak set of WRs. Nobody is going to make this offense look good consistently when the OL fails with consistency and the WRs drop balls consistently.

[Mongo3451]

name='jason' date='Dec 4 2011, 02:55 PM' post='98182']

My answer to all of this is simple.

 

I believe the play was a good play that was poorly executed. I've stated this already. Hanie made an iffy throw, Davis didn't meet the ball, and Webb completely whiffed on a blocking assignment that had to be his. Further, the situation lends itself perfectly for a play like that. 2nd and short is a down you can take a chance because you have 3rd and short if it fails. Jim Miller thought it was a good call. So did others. Hell, most of this board liked it early in the year in nearly identical situations. I just think that no matter what Martz does, people will irrationally hate him. And the reason why is this offense is not set up for success thanks to JA.

Good play, horrble call. Down and distance was great, but field position, personnel and stadium was stupid. 2nd and 1 inside the ten is not where you take that chance. (especially with the personnel you have) You simply get the first and goal and do what you do best. Nothing with special timing or that the players are inexperienced with. That's where Martz outsmarts himself. As far as personnel is concerned, Martz has to sit down with Lovie and JA and say, "This is where we are at. And this is what we can do as a result of." Instead, Martz does his thing and has to be told to tone it down. JA is responsible for talent and Martz is responsible for how it is used. He loves to beat that square peg into a round hole.

The OL is still bad. It's still the #1 priority, IMO. Even with improvements, it's not good. The QB gets pressured way too often on simple 3 and 5 step drops, much less 7 step drops. And the OL doesn't open holes for the running game very consistently either. Thankfully they do open gaping holes on occasion, which has led to much of the ground game's success. Yes, the WRs are lacking, but this is one of those back-and-forth discussions everyone on this board, and I imagine the other Chicago Bears boards, will continue to have: does OL benefit WR more than WR benefits OL? I say yes. Put in good OL, and the WRs on the Bears are suddenly putting up good/great stats. Just look at the games that Cutler had time; the WRs were lethal. But that doesn't happen nearly enough.

I think the OL has improved, but agree they are the weakest link.(with WR a close 2nd) That being said, you dummy it down until they find an identity. Also, agree OL is priority one, but only to find an LT. I like our other opening day starters.

End result: 3 years with Martz and the offense hasn't done much. But I can't blame him that much when he's given a weak OL and weak set of WRs. Nobody is going to make this offense look good consistently when the OL fails with consistency and the WRs drop balls consistently.

JA is to blame for striking out on so many DL's and Safeties in the draft.(No room for OL) I think he is experiencing the same frustration Ron Turner went through. Thing is, Turner didn't try to get cute with it or jeopardize the QB's health. He was predictable, maybe by default. I think if Turner would have had Cutler and Forte things may have boded a little better for him. I simply believe Martz's best days have passed him by.

 

 

[jason]

Good play, horrble call. Down and distance was great, but field position, personnel and stadium was stupid. 2nd and 1 inside the ten is not where you take that chance. (especially with the personnel you have) You simply get the first and goal and do what you do best. Nothing with special timing or that the players are inexperienced with. That's where Martz outsmarts himself. As far as personnel is concerned, Martz has to sit down with Lovie and JA and say, "This is where we are at. And this is what we can do as a result of." Instead, Martz does his thing and has to be told to tone it down. JA is responsible for talent and Martz is responsible for how it is used. He loves to beat that square peg into a round hole.

 

I think the OL has improved, but agree they are the weakest link.(with WR a close 2nd) That being said, you dummy it down until they find an identity. Also, agree OL is priority one, but only to find an LT. I like our other opening day starters.

 

JA is to blame for striking out on so many DL's and Safeties in the draft.(No room for OL) I think he is experiencing the same frustration Ron Turner went through. Thing is, Turner didn't try to get cute with it or jeopardize the QB's health. He was predictable, maybe by default. I think if Turner would have had Cutler and Forte things may have boded a little better for him. I simply believe Martz's best days have passed him by.

 

-On the play we simply disagree. If it goes for a TD, everyone is on their hands and knees fellating Martz.

-Unfortunately, LTs don't last until the mid-teens in the draft. As for the other opening day starters, I don't like them as much. Both Williams and Spencer are average OGs at best, and Garza is out of position. That's why someone like Peter Konz from Wisconsin makes so much sense. He upgrades the Center position, Garza moves and upgrades an OG position, and Carimi comes back to upgrade the LT position. An OL of Carimi - Garza - Konz - Spencer/Williams - Louis has serious potential.

-You're right about the Turner/Martz differences. I guess it comes down to personal belief and desire. I happen to want an OC who is capable of creating an offense that can explode, but may take some chances. I hate the "hold on to the lead" kind of guys (e.g. Turner, Shoop). That's why I place the majority of the blame on JA and the OL, because if those two pieces of the puzzle weren't missing, I believe people in Chicago would be singing praises about Martz-ball.

[GakMan23]

-On the play we simply disagree. If it goes for a TD, everyone is on their hands and knees fellating Martz.

-Unfortunately, LTs don't last until the mid-teens in the draft. As for the other opening day starters, I don't like them as much. Both Williams and Spencer are average OGs at best, and Garza is out of position. That's why someone like Peter Konz from Wisconsin makes so much sense. He upgrades the Center position, Garza moves and upgrades an OG position, and Carimi comes back to upgrade the LT position. An OL of Carimi - Garza - Konz - Spencer/Williams - Louis has serious potential.

-You're right about the Turner/Martz differences. I guess it comes down to personal belief and desire. I happen to want an OC who is capable of creating an offense that can explode, but may take some chances. I hate the "hold on to the lead" kind of guys (e.g. Turner, Shoop). That's why I place the majority of the blame on JA and the OL, because if those two pieces of the puzzle weren't missing, I believe people in Chicago would be singing praises about Martz-ball.

 

 

 

Louis as the RT? No thanks!!!! He looked like a matador on sunday. It's funny how max protect makes the line look better then it is....

[jason]

Louis as the RT? No thanks!!!! He looked like a matador on sunday. It's funny how max protect makes the line look better then it is....

 

I was trying to find a middle ground with those that think the OL is suddenly good.

 

Louis is perhaps the best on the OL behind Garza. And that should be all we have to say about it. But there are still some that think this OL, because they've upgraded from "potentially worst in NFL history" to "one of the worst three in the NFL this year," is making significant enough improvement for it not to be the #1 need on the team.

[lemonej]

-On the play we simply disagree. If it goes for a TD, everyone is on their hands and knees fellating Martz.

-Unfortunately, LTs don't last until the mid-teens in the draft. As for the other opening day starters, I don't like them as much. Both Williams and Spencer are average OGs at best, and Garza is out of position. That's why someone like Peter Konz from Wisconsin makes so much sense. He upgrades the Center position, Garza moves and upgrades an OG position, and Carimi comes back to upgrade the LT position. An OL of Carimi - Garza - Konz - Spencer/Williams - Louis has serious potential.

-You're right about the Turner/Martz differences. I guess it comes down to personal belief and desire. I happen to want an OC who is capable of creating an offense that can explode, but may take some chances. I hate the "hold on to the lead" kind of guys (e.g. Turner, Shoop). That's why I place the majority of the blame on JA and the OL, because if those two pieces of the puzzle weren't missing, I believe people in Chicago would be singing praises about Martz-ball.

I can't agree with that Jason because on Martz's previous 2 stops he was one and done as an OC because of the way the QB would get hit numerous times. He has some very good plays to attack defenses without putting his QB in harms way. The most recent game is not on his play calling but more on Hanie holding the ball which kinda releases the line of some of the blame. Don't get me wrong though I agree that there is only so much you can get out of a patch work OL.Derrick Johnson was unblocked on several run blitzes which means the interior guys and the QB didn't recognize this during presnap reads. Martz's system reminds me of Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, with the ideal personnel it works but if you don't have the ideal personnel it is suspect. Everyone who played on that offense to a man admitted that if not for them having Marshall Faulk it would not have worked.Most of these so called "gurus" need a few years and a cooperative GM to acquire the right talent for their schemes. This GM is not on board with Martz at all and you can see that in the disparity of dollars spent on defense versus offense. In most cases it involves HOF talent that falls into their laps.Example our cover 2 is only good because of Briggs,Urlacher and Peppers who will get HOF consideration.

[GakMan23]

I was trying to find a middle ground with those that think the OL is suddenly good.

 

Louis is perhaps the best on the OL behind Garza. And that should be all we have to say about it. But there are still some that think this OL, because they've upgraded from "potentially worst in NFL history" to "one of the worst three in the NFL this year," is making significant enough improvement for it not to be the #1 need on the team.

 

 

Gotcha, I was worried for a second. Though I would argue that a healthy Carimi is better then either of them, but he is not so...

[jason]

I can't agree with that Jason because on Martz's previous 2 stops he was one and done as an OC because of the way the QB would get hit numerous times. He has some very good plays to attack defenses without putting his QB in harms way. The most recent game is not on his play calling but more on Hanie holding the ball which kinda releases the line of some of the blame. Don't get me wrong though I agree that there is only so much you can get out of a patch work OL.Derrick Johnson was unblocked on several run blitzes which means the interior guys and the QB didn't recognize this during presnap reads. Martz's system reminds me of Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, with the ideal personnel it works but if you don't have the ideal personnel it is suspect. Everyone who played on that offense to a man admitted that if not for them having Marshall Faulk it would not have worked.Most of these so called "gurus" need a few years and a cooperative GM to acquire the right talent for their schemes. This GM is not on board with Martz at all and you can see that in the disparity of dollars spent on defense versus offense. In most cases it involves HOF talent that falls into their laps.Example our cover 2 is only good because of Briggs,Urlacher and Peppers who will get HOF consideration.

 

lemon, I respect your opinion, but did you honestly think Hanie was holding the ball all that much? I surely don't. On most of the hurries/sacks, I thought he held it a very minimal time. Maybe just enough to peek at a first read and then turn his head for the second read before realizing he was in the middle of a stampede. Maybe two plays I said to myself, "Gotta get rid of it, Hanie." Otherwise he dropped back to his predesigned 5 or 7 step drop, and had either no time (i.e. the pressure was there already), or minimal time (i.e. if he doesn't plant his back foot and throw the pressure is forthcoming - which means there is no time for a second read).

 

The last part we definitely agree. JA invests in defense, which makes his coaches happy. This is not a surprise since the Bears seemingly always have defensive coaches. Just once I'd like to see an offensive minded GM and HC come into Chicago. We know it can be done in cold weather, because the Packers are raping the league right now, and have been on offense for quite some time.

[lemonej]

lemon, I respect your opinion, but did you honestly think Hanie was holding the ball all that much? I surely don't. On most of the hurries/sacks, I thought he held it a very minimal time. Maybe just enough to peek at a first read and then turn his head for the second read before realizing he was in the middle of a stampede. Maybe two plays I said to myself, "Gotta get rid of it, Hanie." Otherwise he dropped back to his predesigned 5 or 7 step drop, and had either no time (i.e. the pressure was there already), or minimal time (i.e. if he doesn't plant his back foot and throw the pressure is forthcoming - which means there is no time for a second read).

 

The last part we definitely agree. JA invests in defense, which makes his coaches happy. This is not a surprise since the Bears seemingly always have defensive coaches. Just once I'd like to see an offensive minded GM and HC come into Chicago. We know it can be done in cold weather, because the Packers are raping the league right now, and have been on offense for quite some time.

Jason I worded it wrong and meant to imply that on some of the TOs or bad passes he held the ball too long. I noticed on some of the deep drops he was hopping and patting the ball.The over throw of Bennett was a perfect example of that. You are absolutely right about some of the jail break rushes that were coming at Hanie and I believe that contributed to the happy feet he exhibited the rest of the game. I'm not trying to absolve the OL's horrible effort on Sunday one bit and believe this should clearly prove that there needs to be an upgrade in talent and depth. Once Carimi and Williams went down(which is really sad)there was no solid backup plan. The same goes for the WR position if the argument is why Williams was playing before Knox then you really have a problem at that position also. So for the record I believe this should be the priorities in this order:

 

1 Protect your biggest investment,Cutler that means draft OL before the 7th round and develop them.

2 Get solid weapons for your biggest investment,Cutler, draft or acquire WRs that have size and speed plus reliable hands.Then we can relegate the smaller novelty guys(Knox and Hester) to that role which suits their talents.

3 Get some youth on every level of the defense.There is age issues in the front 7 that warrants some attention and most of the secondary are up for contracts after this season and you have to figure that they won't be able to resign all of them.

 

BTW Sorry I took this long to respond because I have been looking at potential draft picks all over the place and today I have read so many mock drafts that my eyes are spinning.LOL

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

I'm hearing that there is a 1% chance Martz is back next year.

[madlithuanian]

As Lenny Kravitz put it, it ain't over 'til it's over...

 

But, I'd be surprised to see him there. I personally want a better fit, but if he stays I hope he gets reigned in far earlier than he did this year...and stays that way.

 

We've had better, we've certainly had worse. But, I just think there's got to be a better fit somewhere.

 

I'm hearing that there is a 1% chance Martz is back next year.

 

[Mongo3451]

As Lenny Kravitz put it, it ain't over 'til it's over...

 

But, I'd be surprised to see him there. I personally want a better fit, but if he stays I hope he gets reigned in far earlier than he did this year...and stays that way.

 

We've had better, we've certainly had worse. But, I just think there's got to be a better fit somewhere.

Having no contract to fall back on, this is as reigned in as he's gonna get.

[lemonej]

I'm hearing that there is a 1% chance Martz is back next year.

Yea he is trying spin control after all the rumors about him sniffing around came out. He didn't come out and say that the rumor about him turning down an extension wasn't true though.The fact that the Bears allegedly offered an extension with no raise is a slap in the face.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Yea he is trying spin control after all the rumors about him sniffing around came out. He didn't come out and say that the rumor about him turning down an extension wasn't true though.The fact that the Bears allegedly offered an extension with no raise is a slap in the face.

Slap in the face to who? It's not like the offense has been great and Martz deserves a raise.