Just for fun

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

For some reason I just have a feeling the Bears will reach for somebody like Ryan Broyles from Oklahoma. That just sounds like a Bears pick to me. I'm hoping for someone like Michael Floyd, or Alshon Jeffery in round 1. If those guys are not available, I think it's worth considering a guy like Nick Toon or Dwight Jones depending on who's available to us. There are alot of routes the Bears could go early in the draft this year. Maybe a guy like Quintin Coples drops to us, then we could pair him up with Peppers. You never know. It happens every year in the draft, where someone you think is going high ends up falling 6-7-8 spots in the draft for whatever reason.

If Coples is there, the Bears HAVE to take him.

[ChileBear]

The statement that "Carimi was drafted to be a LT" is 100% inaccurate.

 

 

Again, I agree with Balta. The only OL that should/could be benched is Webb. Even Webb though hasn't been awful this year. Look at Sunday. It was Louis at RT getting burnt, not Webb.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but i think the OL will be fine next year after all the experience they are getting. Webb is a weak link, but he is getting valuable experience and can only improve. I'd go for WR in the first round or DE, whichever is the better athlete when we draft. I also would pick up an OL in the third round to add depth, and release Omyale yesterday!

[balta1701-A]

Can't believe I'm saying this, but i think the OL will be fine next year after all the experience they are getting. Webb is a weak link, but he is getting valuable experience and can only improve. I'd go for WR in the first round or DE, whichever is the better athlete when we draft. I also would pick up an OL in the third round to add depth, and release Omyale yesterday!

If the Bears decide they have any money to spend in the FA market (after hopefully adding some depth at a couple spots), I'd really like them to fill 1 of those 2 roles, either DE or WR, in the FA market. I wouldn't expect a 2nd rounder to come in and be ready to take the reins at either position unless you got an absolute score.

[Lucky Luciano]

So, you give 4 competent O-Linemen when Carimi and C. Williams are healthy. That basically means your entire problem with the O-Line is Webb right now. I'll admit, Webb is not the best lineman in the league, but he is no where near bad enough that he should be replaced by a rookie. We already had one person in this thread go after him because he was a 7th round pick and ignore the fact that he's played fairly well this season.

 

to me the key word in your paragraph is this... "played fairly well". this seems to be the problem this franchise has had for 10+ years and quite frankly is the reason we have poor quality players at key positions and no depth or players on our roster to replace them. that problem to me is the mentality of not drafting a potentially better/high quality player who may not start or contribute immediately (believe me i do understand the concept of todays salary cap and free agent restrictions in this regard).

 

quarterbacks and offensive linemen are the prime examples of you having to draft players that will/may take time to develop on your roster rather than throwing them into the fire so to speak unless you have the luxury of already having a developed, very good, offensive line that you only need to plug one player into as a starter and can compensate for with veteran experienced players playing next to him or around him (like a good blocking fullback or tight ends). players that are playing "fairly well" at this position can and will contribute to ending the career of your franchise quarterback (or even your running back if he is taking a pounding hitting non-existent holes in the line week after week). is this risk really worth it?

 

yet this franchise always looks at the poor, or at best average, player that may play better than a rookie SHORT TERM and make their decisions based upon that. ever wonder why we usually need to replace MULTIPLE linemen all at once? it is because we never plan ahead as to age or quality and end up having to hope to hell we can draft 3 or 4 offensive linemen in one draft that are worth a dam or find yet another aging free agent. it just does not work that way usually. you need to keep looking at the future in these particular instances and draft quality players over a period of years.

 

here is an example: let us say webb does turn into an average LT. do you not want to upgrade that to an excellent, all-pro type of player? i sure do. this holds true to every position on the line. let's say you do find 2 young studs at the same position. wouldn't you like to be able to trade one for some real compensation to another team and keep your best player in chicago?

 

Webb is still a work in progress, everyone will admit that. IMO, the biggest thing he needs to do is cut down on the penalties...he's actually done a fairly good job of being an effective blocker this year. The penalties have hurt, but that is the kind of thing that you're not going to improve upon by replacing the guy with a rookie.

 

i have to ask... what is a 'fair' amount of sacks you want your franchise quarterback to absorb from the play of a questionable player and in this case from your qb's blindside? to me that is insane to risk the health of the rarest and hardest to find player on your roster. it took us how many decades and wasted draft picks to find a franchise qb? why risk the health of this franchise to go the cheap route and hope for the best from an iffy player? if we draft a high potential player to play LT (or any line position for that matter) and webb/others still outperforms him then so be it. let webb start until he is either in the elite category or draft another to push him/them out.

 

[jason]

Can't believe I'm saying this, but i think the OL will be fine next year after all the experience they are getting. Webb is a weak link, but he is getting valuable experience and can only improve. I'd go for WR in the first round or DE, whichever is the better athlete when we draft. I also would pick up an OL in the third round to add depth, and release Omyale yesterday!

 

But weren't the same things said before this year? And before last year?

[balta1701-A]

But weren't the same things said before this year? And before last year?

Really, no. I wanted a first round O-Lineman drafted last year, and I got one. I might well be in the boat of wanting another O-Lineman this year had it not been for the emergence of Louis as a legit option at RG.

[balta1701-A]

to me the key word in your paragraph is this... "played fairly well". this seems to be the problem this franchise has had for 10+ years and quite frankly is the reason we have poor quality players at key positions and no depth or players on our roster to replace them. that problem to me is the mentality of not drafting a potentially better/high quality player who may not start or contribute immediately (believe me i do understand the concept of todays salary cap and free agent restrictions in this regard).

 

quarterbacks and offensive linemen are the prime examples of you having to draft players that will/may take time to develop on your roster rather than throwing them into the fire so to speak unless you have the luxury of already having a developed, very good, offensive line that you only need to plug one player into as a starter and can compensate for with veteran experienced players playing next to him or around him (like a good blocking fullback or tight ends). players that are playing "fairly well" at this position can and will contribute to ending the career of your franchise quarterback (or even your running back if he is taking a pounding hitting non-existent holes in the line week after week). is this risk really worth it?

 

yet this franchise always looks at the poor, or at best average, player that may play better than a rookie SHORT TERM and make their decisions based upon that. ever wonder why we usually need to replace MULTIPLE linemen all at once? it is because we never plan ahead as to age or quality and end up having to hope to hell we can draft 3 or 4 offensive linemen in one draft that are worth a dam or find yet another aging free agent. it just does not work that way usually. you need to keep looking at the future in these particular instances and draft quality players over a period of years.

 

here is an example: let us say webb does turn into an average LT. do you not want to upgrade that to an excellent, all-pro type of player? i sure do. this holds true to every position on the line. let's say you do find 2 young studs at the same position. wouldn't you like to be able to trade one for some real compensation to another team and keep your best player in chicago?

 

 

 

i have to ask... what is a 'fair' amount of sacks you want your franchise quarterback to absorb from the play of a questionable player and in this case from your qb's blindside? to me that is insane to risk the health of the rarest and hardest to find player on your roster. it took us how many decades and wasted draft picks to find a franchise qb? why risk the health of this franchise to go the cheap route and hope for the best from an iffy player? if we draft a high potential player to play LT (or any line position for that matter) and webb/others still outperforms him then so be it. let webb start until he is either in the elite category or draft another to push him/them out.

A couple points in reply. Webb is, IMO, already at least an average LT. But if we simply want to go after "tools" here, he has above average LT tools. The thing that keeps him from being an above average LT right now is that he commits too many penalties. Too many holds and too many false starts...but that means that he has it in him to become an above average LT simply by learning the game more.

 

Secondly...you ask for the team to commit to developing O-Line by looking long term. I hate to say it...but this is exactly the Offensive line the Bears have right now, a number of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year guys, with a veteran center between them. Yet, by drafting another O-Lineman and benching one of the current group, you're essentially demanding a full restart to the process of developing that line, and you're doing it during the last year or two when Peppers and Urlacher will be major contributors.

 

Third...can you legitimately establish for me based on someone's stats that Webb has given up an anomalously high number of sacks/hits this season? I've searched around for the stats and I don't see them. Last year, he was one of the worst OLineman in football...this year my estimation is he's been solid.

[Lucky Luciano]

Really, no. I wanted a first round O-Lineman drafted last year, and I got one. I might well be in the boat of wanting another O-Lineman this year had it not been for the emergence of Louis as a legit option at RG.

 

in my opinion we are again hoping that a player who had 4-5 'good' games not even playing guard is going to turn into an elite player over the next 10 years (not even mentioning if chris williams will do the same). add to this factor that garza is an average, at best, center who is aging and we SHOULD have drafted kreutz/garza's replacement 2 years ago.

 

it is just too risky to not draft high to find good+ offensive linemen who will keep cutler off the IR.

[Lucky Luciano]

A couple points in reply. Webb is, IMO, already at least an average LT. But if we simply want to go after "tools" here, he has above average LT tools. The thing that keeps him from being an above average LT right now is that he commits too many penalties. Too many holds and too many false starts...but that means that he has it in him to become an above average LT simply by learning the game more.

 

i just don't see webb at this point other than a below average LT. the holding penalties, false starts certainly count in the evaluation of any offensive lineman the same as the missed asignments and missed blocks. plus how is the run blocking on the left side of the line? doesn't that count a lot also in tackle evaluation?

 

what tools are you talking about that isn't listed on nearly every draft evaluation of players ever produced? doesn't frank ohmy have those same tools? sporatic good games do not make a solid consistant player. could he develop? sure, but do you really want to bet the farm on him and risk injury to your franchise QB gambling he will get better over the next 2-3 years without any alternate plan in effect?

 

Secondly...you ask for the team to commit to developing O-Line by looking long term. I hate to say it...but this is exactly the Offensive line the Bears have right now, a number of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year guys, with a veteran center between them. Yet, by drafting another O-Lineman and benching one of the current group, you're essentially demanding a full restart to the process of developing that line, and you're doing it during the last year or two when Peppers and Urlacher will be major contributors.

 

the players we are fielding... LT - an undrafted walk-on, LG - a first round pick at tackle who couldn't cut it there, C - an aging free agent who never played center before in the NFL, RG - a free agent who was released by his former team where HE played center, RT - a 7th round draft pick who was listed as a guard and has played inconsistently at tackle.

 

to me there is a very good reason players are drafted in the rounds they are and that is mental and physical talent and experience in college against the best competition (i know there are always exceptions to the rule). could webb, c. williams, and l. louis turn into exceptional players? yes. but with the little experience we have watched so far it is NOT a safe bet any of them will be other than average/good backups.

 

as far as drafting other players and benching the current starters: i never said that. what i did say is draft good potential talent (higher round draft picks) and let them really compete in training camp. if the rookies are not up to it yet then let them sit and learn while starting the BEST player at that position.

 

as far as url and pepperman, these guys have a closing window on their talents. do we want to ignore the health of this franchises future to start mediocre players at a super important position and risk the health of a player who is the franchise ticket for the next 8-10 years?

 

Third...can you legitimately establish for me based on someone's stats that Webb has given up an anomalously high number of sacks/hits this season? I've searched around for the stats and I don't see them. Last year, he was one of the worst OLineman in football...this year my estimation is he's been solid.

 

absolutely not. i have no idea where stats like those could be found and if anybody can please post them for us all.

 

the only thing i can do is observe what is happening on the field every gameday. to me i am seeing webb miss assignments that caused not only hanie problems but caused cutler to have to scramble to avoid pressure or just plain get racked. this even with TE or FB help to block on that side there have been problems. can i tell you specifically which play or even game? no. i have no way to watch any film or replay other than what is broadcast at the time.

 

it is happening all over the offensive line. on one play they push in the left side, the next the right, and if that is not bad enough they come up the middle. every time? no, but enough that no QB can feel comfort back there for more than a heartbeat.

 

one more comment... the holding plays are generally what happens when you get beat as an offensive lineman. so to me nearly every holding call could have just as easily been a recorded sack.

[jason]

i just don't see webb at this point other than a below average LT. the holding penalties, false starts certainly count in the evaluation of any offensive lineman the same as the missed asignments and missed blocks. plus how is the run blocking on the left side of the line? doesn't that count a lot also in tackle evaluation?

 

what tools are you talking about that isn't listed on nearly every draft evaluation of players ever produced? doesn't frank ohmy have those same tools? sporatic good games do not make a solid consistant player. could he develop? sure, but do you really want to bet the farm on him and risk injury to your franchise QB gambling he will get better over the next 2-3 years without any alternate plan in effect?

 

the players we are fielding... LT - an undrafted walk-on, LG - a first round pick at tackle who couldn't cut it there, C - an aging free agent who never played center before in the NFL, RG - a free agent who was released by his former team where HE played center, RT - a 7th round draft pick who was listed as a guard and has played inconsistently at tackle.

 

to me there is a very good reason players are drafted in the rounds they are and that is mental and physical talent and experience in college against the best competition (i know there are always exceptions to the rule). could webb, c. williams, and l. louis turn into exceptional players? yes. but with the little experience we have watched so far it is NOT a safe bet any of them will be other than average/good backups.

 

as far as drafting other players and benching the current starters: i never said that. what i did say is draft good potential talent (higher round draft picks) and let them really compete in training camp. if the rookies are not up to it yet then let them sit and learn while starting the BEST player at that position.

 

as far as url and pepperman, these guys have a closing window on their talents. do we want to ignore the health of this franchises future to start mediocre players at a super important position and risk the health of a player who is the franchise ticket for the next 8-10 years?

 

absolutely not. i have no idea where stats like those could be found and if anybody can please post them for us all.

 

the only thing i can do is observe what is happening on the field every gameday. to me i am seeing webb miss assignments that caused not only hanie problems but caused cutler to have to scramble to avoid pressure or just plain get racked. this even with TE or FB help to block on that side there have been problems. can i tell you specifically which play or even game? no. i have no way to watch any film or replay other than what is broadcast at the time.

 

it is happening all over the offensive line. on one play they push in the left side, the next the right, and if that is not bad enough they come up the middle. every time? no, but enough that no QB can feel comfort back there for more than a heartbeat.

 

one more comment... the holding plays are generally what happens when you get beat as an offensive lineman. so to me nearly every holding call could have just as easily been a recorded sack.

 

I could not agree any more. I think it's crazy that anyone is talking about this OL as being average or good. Talking about the promise of the OL is all well and good, but most people who make it into the NFL have promise. What they do to capitalize on the promise is where things change. Thus far, the promise is all the Bears really have.

 

The bolded part is what I find the most ridiculous.

[balta1701-A]

I could not agree any more. I think it's crazy that anyone is talking about this OL as being average or good. Talking about the promise of the OL is all well and good, but most people who make it into the NFL have promise. What they do to capitalize on the promise is where things change. Thus far, the promise is all the Bears really have.

 

The bolded part is what I find the most ridiculous.

But seriously, if you spend another high draft pick or two on the OLine...then you're still going to be just talking about the O-Line on promise! It literally doesn't change anything except benches one promising young player for another.

 

And Personally, I find it ridiculous after all the low round picks we've seen have success in the NFL that people are judging 2nd and 3rd year players based on where they were drafted. I mean, pick your example, there's dozens of UDFA's who wind up as major successes, and a bunch more show up every year.

[lemonej]

This Bears O-Line never had Carimi all year, and aside from the games where Omiyale started, Cutler had time to throw and the RB's had exceptional holes. Webb's guy in particular often does little damage: he has Jared Allen's number for some reason.

Was the time to throw because of Culter's ability to step up in the pocket or his ability to roll away from the rush? Was it exceptional holes or did they attack the edge with Forte and he made a tackler miss and then he was off on a long gain? As for Webb having Allen's number, is that based on the one game this year? I don't remember Allen lining up across from him alot in the 2 games last year. Allen had a couple of sacks against the Bears last season in the first game but I can't remember if he even played in the game at the Golden Gophers stadium. This line at one point not only led the league in sacks given up and hits on the QB. Now this has resurfaced recently.

[balta1701-A]

Was the time to throw because of Culter's ability to step up in the pocket or his ability to roll away from the rush? Was it exceptional holes or did they attack the edge with Forte and he made a tackler miss and then he was off on a long gain? As for Webb having Allen's number, is that based on the one game this year? I don't remember Allen lining up across from him alot in the 2 games last year. Allen had a couple of sacks against the Bears last season in the first game but I can't remember if he even played in the game at the Golden Gophers stadium. This line at one point not only led the league in sacks given up and hits on the QB. Now this has resurfaced recently.

Frankly, I thought Cutler had plenty of time except for the games that Omiyale was in there, and it wasn't because of Cutler stepping up. I actually thought Cutler was holding the ball way too long and that a number of his sacks, except for the games with Omiyale, were on him holding it for way too long...which I would almost call a coverage sack...which is the kind of thing that happens when WR can't get open.

[lemonej]

Frankly, I thought Cutler had plenty of time except for the games that Omiyale was in there, and it wasn't because of Cutler stepping up. I actually thought Cutler was holding the ball way too long and that a number of his sacks, except for the games with Omiyale, were on him holding it for way too long...which I would almost call a coverage sack...which is the kind of thing that happens when WR can't get open.

Really? Omiyale was out on the field in game 1 against ATL and game 2 against NO when he was benched during that game. Then came the GB game in game 3. After that game was the Mon. Nite at DET when it was clear that Cutler was having a decent game by avoiding the rush. Lance Lois was at RT after Omiyale was benched during that game. After this game the Bears were 1 and 2. Then came the Carolina game which the Bears won but again Cutler took some hits and was sacked multiple times but Omiyale was still there in the lineup. 2 and 2 then the Mon Nite Det game. Omiyale is taken out of the game and replaced by Louis. At 2-3 the Bears go on a roll and the sack totals start to dwindle as a result of a combination of things ,QB, change of block approach(more max-protect) and the D and ST rise to the occassion. AT 7-3 the Bears had a good thing going with dwindling sacks and a RB who was having a special season. In consecutive weeks the starting QB and RB go down to injury and then the OL starts to look like early season form and that is proven in the KC game when the starting RB got hit by a player who wasn't blocked by the TE(brought in because of his blocking prowess) whiffed on a block allowing the hit on the RB. Please give me your take on why this same line you seem to be okay with didn't realize where that LB that hit the starting RB and put him out for a few weeks was and why he wasn't getting blocked.

[balta1701-A]

I have to justify why 1 hit happened? And after 2/5 of the starting oline was out for the year?

[jason]

But seriously, if you spend another high draft pick or two on the OLine...then you're still going to be just talking about the O-Line on promise! It literally doesn't change anything except benches one promising young player for another.

 

And Personally, I find it ridiculous after all the low round picks we've seen have success in the NFL that people are judging 2nd and 3rd year players based on where they were drafted. I mean, pick your example, there's dozens of UDFA's who wind up as major successes, and a bunch more show up every year.

 

I guess this comes down to two things:

 

1) You think some of the guys have promise where most others don't think those same players show promise, and I certainly don't think they show much promise. And when I say promise, I mean "should start in the NFL." And by that I mean, not just because the team hasn't gotten someone better. I'm not happy with the C- student just because the teacher passed him on to the next grade to get him out of the classroom.

 

2) What you and I quantify as success, on the Bears OL. Other UDFA players have done well all over the NFL, but I don't see any on the Bears OL. They may be UDFA, but we will just disagree on whether they've done well. I'm still shocked that you're actually saying the Bears have given their QBs enough time to throw. We are clearly not watching the same games. You must consider anything more than 2 seconds a luxury in the pocket and a coverage sack. I'd love to watch a game with you, seriously, and discuss whether player A got beat or not, whether he held his block long enough or not, and whether his performance had a negative impact on the play. I think you, and some others, see the Bears' OL improvements via diminished sack statistics as solely their own. I just don't see it that way. The changes made on offense have been to mask the OL's impotence. That, and a minor improvement, have led to the current status. But they are far from good, and their flaws hamstring the offensive potential because the OC, regardless of who he is, must castrate the playbook in order to overcome the OL's inadequacies.

 

Also, it's intellectually dishonest to pretend a higher draft pick doesn't, in general, have a higher probability of success in the NFL. The UDFAs are usually UD for a reason.

[balta1701-A]

Also, it's intellectually dishonest to pretend a higher draft pick doesn't, in general, have a higher probability of success in the NFL. The UDFAs are usually UD for a reason.

But once we're past the point of the actual draft and guys are in for workouts with the team, it's just as dishonest to consider their draft status in almost any way. If a guy comes in faster than he was at the draft, or stronger, or healthier, who cares if he was a 7th round pick?

[Lucky Luciano]

But once we're past the point of the actual draft and guys are in for workouts with the team, it's just as dishonest to consider their draft status in almost any way. If a guy comes in faster than he was at the draft, or stronger, or healthier, who cares if he was a 7th round pick?

 

this i do agree with and we have seen this numerous times in chicago.

 

one problem seems 'possible' to me with the lovie and even jauron era is that whomever they like in practice whether he plays the same (as well) in game situations is the continual penciled in starter. it's like they have blinders on.

 

with all that said, i still believe there are a reason FOR THE MOST PART, that players are drafted higher than others. there are always the exceptions to the rule like jay hilgenberg but generally the orlando paces and walter jones of the world are drafted where they are for a reason.

[balta1701-A]

with all that said, i still believe there are a reason FOR THE MOST PART, that players are drafted higher than others. there are always the exceptions to the rule like jay hilgenberg but generally the orlando paces and walter jones of the world are drafted where they are for a reason.

Well of course they're drafted there for a reason...but that doesn't mean I can't find a dozen examples of pro-bowlers from the back of the draft or UDFA almost every year.

[jason]

But once we're past the point of the actual draft and guys are in for workouts with the team, it's just as dishonest to consider their draft status in almost any way. If a guy comes in faster than he was at the draft, or stronger, or healthier, who cares if he was a 7th round pick?

 

True. But I've yet to see a consistent improvement from the late-round guys to consider this a viable, equal secondary choice to successfully drafting the guys you need in the positions you need. It doesn't matter where a guy gets drafted if he does well, but there is statistical proof that higher draft picks have a better probability of success in the NFL.

[jason]

Revisiting this idea, I would love a draft that was entirely OL, WR, and FS. I think the other positions are much more solid. Well, it would be nice to attempt to get a competent backup QB as well.

 

I know it will never happen, but I think it would actually be a good idea. Get 2 or 3 OLinemen who have talent and potential, get one explosive WR, and get one FS who understands how to read, react, and take appropriate angles towards the ball.