Lucky Luciano Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 i have compiled this information to illustrate the importance of drafting well and particularly drafting well in rounds 1-3 if you want to participate in a superbowl. also, i believe the quality of those draft picks is PARAMOUNT to the health and competiveness of your team yet if you look at the bears roster, the number of quality players drafted in these rounds by jerry angelo is exceptionally poor. below are listed all superbowl participents since jerry angelo became GM and participated in the bears draft choices below. I have also listed below all of the bear rosters to date for comparrison. feel free to copy this information for future references if you wish. 2002 tampa bay - superbowl champs 11 starters drafted 8 first day picks – *FB mike alstott, RG cosey coleman, RT kenyatta walker, LDT ‘booger’ mcfarland, *RDT warren sapp, *RLB derrick brooks, LCB brian kelly, *RCB ronde barber, *SS john lynch. 5 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. oakland - losers 10 starters drafted 9 first day picks – WR jerry porter, LG mo collins, LG matt stinchcomb, *C barret robbins, LDE delawrence grant, RDE tony bryant, MLB napoleon harris, *LCB charles woodson, SS derrick gibson. 2 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. 2003 new england - superbowl champs 16 starters drafted 11 first day picks – RB kevin faulk, WR deion branch, WR bethel johnson, TE daniel graham, *LT matt light, *LG damien woody, *RDT richard seymour, *RDE willie mcginest, *MLB tedy bruschi, *LCB ty law, FS eugene wilson. 6 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. carolina panthers - losers 11 starters drafted 10 first day picks – *WR muhsin muhammad, *WR steve smith, TE mike seidman, *RT jordan gross, *LDE julius peppers, *RDT kris jenkins, *RDT mike rucker, *MLB dan morgan, RLB will witherspoon, LCB ricky manning, SS mike minter, FS deon grant. 7 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. 2004 new england - superbowl champs 15 starters drafted 11 first day picks - WR deion branch, TE daniel graham, *LT matt light, LDE ty warren, *NT vince wilfork, *RDE richard seymour, *LOLB willie mcginest, LILB ted johnson, *MLB tedy bruschi, *LCB ty law, FS eugene wilson. 6 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. eagles - losers 14 starters drafted 14 first day picks - *QB donovan mcnabb, *RB brian westbrook, WR freddie mitchell, WR tod pinkston, TE l.j. smith, *LT tra thomas, RG jermane mayberry, LDT corey simon, RDE derrick burgess, *MLB jeremiah trotter, *LCB lito sheppard, RCB sheldon brown, *SS michael lewis, *FS brian dawkins. 7 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. 2005 steelers - superbowl champs 18 starters drafted 12 first day picks – *QB ben roethlisberger, WR antwaan randle el, *WR hines ward, *TE heath miller, *LT marvel smith, *LG alen faneca, RG kendall simmons, RT max starks, *NT casey hampton, *ROLB joey porter, *SS troy polamalu, *FS chris hope. 9 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. seahawks - losers 14 starters drafted 12 first day picks - *RB shaun alexander, WR darrell jackson, TE jerramy stevens, *LT walter jones, *LG steve huchinson, RT sean locklear, RDT marcus tubbs, LOLB leroy hill, *MLB lofa tatupu, *RCB marcus trufant, SS michael boulware, *FS ken hamlin. 6 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. 2006 colts - superbowl champs 17 starters drafted 10 first day picks - *QB peyton manning, *RB joseph addai, *WR marvin harrison, *WR reggie wayne, *TE dallas clark, *LT tarik glenn, *RDE dwight freeney, LLB gilbert gardner, LLB rob morris, FS marlin jackson. 7 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. bears - LOSERS 16 bear drafted starters 11 first day picks – QB rex grossman, RB cedric benson, WR bernard berrian, *C olin kreutz, *LDT tommy harris, RDT tank johnson, *MLB brian urlacher, *RLB lance briggs, CB charles tillman, *SS mike brown, FS danieal manning. 5 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. jerry angelo drafted two of them. ***SEE BELOW… 2007 giants - superbowl champs 15 starters drafted 9 first day picks – *QB eli manning (swap 1st picks), WR amani toomer, *TE jeremy shockey, *RG chris snee, *LDE michael strahan, *RDE osi umenyiora, LLB mathias kiwanuka, LCB aron ross, *RCB sam madison. 6 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. patriots - losers 18 starters drafted 12 first day picks – RB kevin faulk, RB laurence maroney, TE ben watson, *LT matt light, *LG logan mankins, RT nick kaczur, LDE ty warren, *NT vince wilfork, *RDE richard seymour, *RILB tedy bruschi, RCB ellis hobbs, FS eugene wilson. 5 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. 2008 steelers - superbowl champs 17 starters drafted 11 first day picks – *QB ben roethelisberger, WR santonio holmes, *WR hines ward, *TE heath miller, TE matt spaeth, LT max starks, *LT marvel smith, *NT casey hampton, *LOLB lamarr woodley, RCB bryant mcfadden, *SS troy polamalu. 7 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. cardinals - losers 16 starters drafted 12 first day picks - *WR anquan boldin, *WR larry fitzgerald, TE leonard pope, RG deuce lutui, RT levi brown, *RDT darnell dockett, MLB gerald hayes, RLB karlos dansby, *RCB dominique cromartie, RCB eric green, *SS adrian wilson, *FS antrel rolle. 6 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. 2009 saints - superbowl champs 14 starters drafted 10 first day picks – RB reggie bush, WR devery henderson, WR robert meachem, *RT jon stinchcomb, LDE charles grant, RDT sedrick ellis, *RDE will smith, RCB tracy porter, RCB malcolm jenkins, *SS roman harper. 3 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. colts - losers 18 starters drafted 10 first day picks - *QB peyton manning, *RB joseph addai, *WR reggie wayne, *TE dallas clark, RG mike pollak, *RDE dwight freeney, LLB philip wheeler, LCB kelvin hayden, LCB tim jennings, RCB jerraud powers. 5 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. 2010 packers - superbowl champs 17 starters drafted 11 first day picks – *QB aaron rodgers, RB brandon jackson, *WR greg jennings, TE jermichael finley, *LT chad clifton, LG daryn colledge, RT bryan bulaga, NT b. j. raji, *LOLB clay matthews, LILB a. j. hawk, *FS nick collins. 5 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. steelers - losers 20 starters drafted 15 first day picks - *QB ben roethlisberger, RB rashard mendenhall, WR mike wallace, *WR hines ward, *TE heath miller, TE matt spaeth, LT max starks, *C maurkice pouncey, RG trai essex, LDE evander hood, *NT casey hampton, *LOLB lamarr woodley, RILB lawrence timmons, LCB bryant mcfadden, *SS troy polamalu. 7 *pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. ================================================================ bears 2001 roster angelo inherited 14 starters drafted by bears – 10 first day picks - anthony thomas, marty booker, dez white, david terrell, rex tucker, olin kreutz, brian urlacher, walt harris, tony parrish, mike brown. remaining bear starters drafted by bears (second day picks) – G chris villarrial, LLB rosey colvin, RLB warrick holdman, CB jerry azumah. starting free agents/undrafted – QB jim miller, RT big cat williams, FB daimon shelton, TE fred baxter, TE john davis, LT blake brockermeyer, LDT ted washington, RDT keith traylor, LDE bryon robinson, RDE phillip daniels, RCB r.w. mcquarters. =========================================================== after 4 years of drafts this is what angelo’s first day draft picks looked like… bears 2005 roster: 13 starters drafted by bears 7 first day pick starters - *C olin kreutz, RG terrence metcalf, *RDT tommy harris, *MLB brian urlacher, *RLB lance briggs, LCB charles tillman, *SS mike brown. angelo’s FOUR 1st day pick starters: terrence metcalf, *tommy harris (2004), *lance briggs (2003), charles tillman (2003). 2 pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. ***2006 – superbowl season 16 starters drafted by bears 11 first day pick starters – QB rex grossman, RB cedric benson, WR bernard berrian, *C olin kreutz, *LDT tommy harris, RDT tank johnson, *MLB brian urlacher, *RLB lance briggs, LCB charles tillman, *SS mike brown, FS danieal manning. angelo’s eight 1st day pick starters: rex grossman, cedric benson, bernard berrian, *tommy harris, tank johnson, *lance briggs, charles tillman, danieal manning. 2 pro-bowl/all-pro player starters during their careers. ALL devin hester pro-bowl/all-pro appearances due to special teams. bears 2007 roster: 13 starters drafted by bears 7 first day pick starters – FS danieal manning, LCB charles tillman, *RLB lance briggs, *MLB brian urlacher, *RDT tommy harris, *C olin kreutz, LG terrence metcalf, WR bernard berrian, RB cedric benson, QB rex grossman. angelo’s eight 1st day pick starters: rex grossman, cedric benson, bernard barrian, terrence metcalf, *tommy harris, *lance briggs, charles tillman, daniel manning. 2 pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. bears 2008 roster: 17 bear drafted starters 11 first day pick starters - *FS mike brown, LCB charles tillman, *RLB lance briggs, *MLB brian urlacher, *RDT tommy harris, NT dusty dvoracek, *C olin kreutz, TE greg olsen, *WR marty booker, WR devin hester, RB matt forte. angelo’s eight 1st day pick starters: RB matt forte, WR devin hester, TE greg olsen, NT dusty dvoracek, *RDT tommy harris, *RLB lance briggs, LCB charles tillman, FS daniel manning. 2 * pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. by this time we got rid of these angelo first day pick starters…benson our starting running back, berrian our #1 receiver, tank johnson our starting LDT. bears 2009 roster: 16 bear drafted starters 11 first day pick starters – RB matt forte, WR earl bennet, WR devin hester, TE greg olsen, LT/RT chris williams, *C olin kreutz, *LDT tommy harris, RDT marcus harrison, *LLB lance brigs, LCB charles tillman, FS danieal manning. angelo’s ten 1st day pick starters: RB matt forte, WR devin hester, WR earl bennet, TE greg olsen, LT/RT chris williams, *LDT tommy harris, RDT marcus harrison, *LLB lance briggs, LCB charles tillman, FS daniel manning. 2 * pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. by this time we got rid of these angelo first day pick starters… rex grossman our starting QB, dusty dvoracek our previous starting NT, terrence metcalf our previous starting LG. bears 2010 roster: 12 bear drafted starters 10 first day pick starters – RB matt forte, WR devin hester, TE greg olsen, LG chris williams, *C olin kreutz, *LDT tommie harris, *LLB lance briggs, *MLB brian urlacher, RCB charles tillman, SS danieal manning. angelo’s eight 1st day pick starters: RB matt forte, WR devin hester, TE greg olsen, LG chris williams, *LDT tommy harris, *LLB lance briggs, RCB charles tillman, SS danieal manning. 2 * pro-bowl/all-pro players during their careers. bears 2011 roster: this season we got rid of these angelo first day pick starters… greg olsen our starting TE, marcus harrison our previous starting RDT, danieal manning our starting SS. TAKE NOTE: during angelo’s tenure the two pro-bowl/all-pro players he drafted in rounds 1-3 were tommy harris and lance briggs. that is it!! also compare the actual quality of the players he drafted in rounds 1-3 (first day picks) to other superbowl teams. it is amazing to me this guy is still employed anywhere in the NFL in the capacity of a GM when you look at his record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bears4Ever_34 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 It is without question, the most important part for sustained success. Look no further than the Green Bay Packers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Luciano Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 It is without question, the most important part for sustained success. Look no further than the Green Bay Packers. along with the packers you can put the steelers in that category. their drafting has been excellent over the years and in my opinion due in large part to very smart football people running and in their franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Interesting data. Although you seem to ignore that some teams had won SBs with fewer drafted players and starters as the Bears have had all along. That points to coaching issues to me. However, I do have to question your observational skills if you think that at any point Marcus Harrison was a starter in 2010. That's kind of a credibility killer when asking someone to believe your conclusions. this season we got rid of these angelo first day pick starters… greg olsen our starting TE, marcus harrisonour previous starting RDT, danieal manning our starting SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Luciano Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Interesting data. Although you seem to ignore that some teams had won SBs with fewer drafted players and starters as the Bears have had all along. That points to coaching issues to me. of course some coaching issues would apply in some instances but does player quality mean nothing to you? compare 'most' of the first day pick rosters against ours and the number and quality of players that are on their roster compared to ours. to me it is pretty telling. this doesn't even take into account the number of 1st day pick pro-bowl/all-pro players each team is sporting and comparing that to jerry angelo's draft picks which are TWO throughout the rosters from 2005 onward. NOT someone else in our organization who drafted urlacher, kreutz and mike brown. so don't you think 4 years is long enough for angelo's draft picks to develop? if not then look at the number of first day picks that were all-pro/pro-bowl players up to present on our roster. the only team that equals us is the freaking oakland raiders with 'two' all-pro/pro-bowl players (the same as angelo's picks) on their roster and then look at their following 8 year records in the nfl. for that matter look at ours. other than the raiders, i believe we are one of 3 teams in the last 20-30+ years that never even made the playoffs for 3 straight years after a superbowl appearance. However, I do have to question your observational skills if you think that at any point Marcus Harrison was a starter in 2010. That's kind of a credibility killer when asking someone to believe your conclusions. hmmm... doesn't GS in NFL statistical data mean the number of games started for that player in a season? if not i guess i 'could' be wrong. but if GS does mean 'games started' maybe you should try your own "observational skills" on the links below and by all means let me know how i did (unless you don't believe their credibility or conclusions either). NFL official website: http://www.nfl.com/player/marcusharrison/2348/profile PRO-FOOTBALL-REFERENCE: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa98.htm EDIT NOTE: i never said m. harrison was a starter in 2010. i said in - 2009 - talk about observational skills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Hasn't hester been to a pro bowl? wasn't he in the 1st 3 rounds? i still think JA sucks regardless... TAKE NOTE: during angelo’s tenure the two pro-bowl/all-pro players he drafted in rounds 1-3 were tommy harris and lance briggs. that is it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Luciano Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Hasn't hester been to a pro bowl? wasn't he in the 1st 3 rounds? i still think JA sucks regardless... hester never went to a pro-bowl or voted all-pro because of his defensive back skills or receiving skills. it was solely as a a special teams player to my knowledge. in this post i did not list any special team players in the statistics as starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Gotcha. BTW - Very nice post...very informative. hester never went to a pro-bowl or voted all-pro because of his defensive back skills or receiving skills. it was solely as a a special teams player to my knowledge. in this post i did not list any special team players in the statistics as starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Luciano Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Gotcha. BTW - Very nice post...very informative. thanks. i hope it is useful, it was a lot of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 of course some coaching issues would apply in some instances but does player quality mean nothing to you? compare 'most' of the first day pick rosters against ours and the number and quality of players that are on their roster compared to ours. to me it is pretty telling. The main problem with your analysis is that it's horribly incomplete. You chose SB teams over the last 10 years - which doesn't even equal the total number of teams in the league. So that doesn't give a complete analysis. What if there are teams that have a higher percentage of starters and ones taken in the first 3 rounds, but never made the SB? In other words, you haven't included any data that might disprove your theories - you've simply cherry picked info that supports your point and left everything else out. If this were a school assignment, you would get an "incomplete". As such, it's hardly persuasive. this doesn't even take into account the number of 1st day pick pro-bowl/all-pro players each team is sporting and comparing that to jerry angelo's draft picks which are TWO throughout the rosters from 2005 onward. NOT someone else in our organization who drafted urlacher, kreutz and mike brown. This is another set of stats that I think are useless without comparative measures. How many All-pro players are there per year? If you're talking just the first team, there is only 1 QB per year out of 32 teams that gets the award. It's too exclusive a measure and also tends to go to the most successful teams. That means it only has a tangential relation to quality. The same goes for Pro-bowls. You don't count special teams players (I'm guessing because it doesn't support your point) so do you count alternates? Also, it's tough to take seriously an accolade that is 1/3 voted by fans, and 2/3 by players and coaches that haven't even played against 1/2 the league in the year in which they are voting. so don't you think 4 years is long enough for angelo's draft picks to develop? if not then look at the number of first day picks that were all-pro/pro-bowl players up to present on our roster. See above. If you were to expand your analysis to include every team every year, you would see that even in years where they don't make the playoffs, teams that play in the AFC East and NFC East have a disproportionate number of players that make All-pro/pro-bowl honors simply because they get more coverage by the press. Similarly, you will see that most players from the midwest and west that get those honors, either get them on reputation some years, or only in years that their teams do well on the field. In other words, it's a piss poor way to measure the quality of individual players. the only team that equals us is the freaking oakland raiders with 'two' all-pro/pro-bowl players (the same as angelo's picks) on their roster and then look at their following 8 year records in the nfl. for that matter look at ours. other than the raiders, i believe we are one of 3 teams in the last 20-30+ years that never even made the playoffs for 3 straight years after a superbowl appearance. Which sounds about right since only 2 teams make the SB each year. The odds of something rare happening means it won't happen very often and doesn't add significance to the event. Oooooo Prater kicked a 50+ yarder to send the game to overtime AND a 50+ yarder to win it. He MUST be the BEST kicker of all time because it's never happened before. (Now think of everything you can to point out about how ridiculous that statement is and apply it to the relevance of the Bears missing the playoffs 3 consecutive years after appearing in a SB. (and BTW - I attribute that drop in production to Lovie hiring "his guys" after he got his contract extension after the SB. He totally messed up the chemistry on the defensive side with more or less the same players.) hmmm... doesn't GS in NFL statistical data mean the number of games started for that player in a season? if not i guess i 'could' be wrong. but if GS does mean 'games started' maybe you should try your own "observational skills" on the links below and by all means let me know how i did (unless you don't believe their credibility or conclusions either). NFL official website: http://www.nfl.com/player/marcusharrison/2348/profile PRO-FOOTBALL-REFERENCE: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa98.htm EDIT NOTE: i never said m. harrison was a starter in 2010. i said in - 2009 - talk about observational skills You wrote "this season we got rid of these angelo first day pick starters… greg olsen our starting TE, marcus harrison our previous starting RDT" The usage of the time sensitive descriptors of "This season" and "our previous starting RDT" implies that we got rid of a recently valuable player. I mean gee whiz. Do you really want to refer to Harrison as a starter when after several years he only started 9 games in one season when the regular starter was injured? Why don't you give Tommie Harris the same level of accolade since he's started MANY more games than Harrison, was a previous starter, and left the roster the same year? I think it's because it didn't make the point you were after at the time as well. Dude - we've been down this road before. You come up with a premise, and then think of ways to cobble together a few stats that support your premise, and then claim that actually doing the analysis properly would take too much time. I seriously have no problem with anyone simply saying "I don't like Angelo or the way he drafts and we haven't won enough in the playoffs for my liking so I think he should be fired." That's fine. Just don't insult our intelligence with non-comparative data analysis and spin doctoring to try and make your point. I mean really? You mention Harrison as if it's a big deal but leave out Tommie Harris? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 All the back-and-forth for this is valid. I see the point being made, but I also see the flaws in the data. What I wish is there was a website that did this. I wish someone out there compared the GMs, the coaches, the teams, on their draft records. Conclusive, hard, all items included data. That'd be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Luciano Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 QUOTE (Lucky Luciano @ Dec 14 2011, 04:44 PM) * of course some coaching issues would apply in some instances but does player quality mean nothing to you? compare 'most' of the first day pick rosters against ours and the number and quality of players that are on their roster compared to ours. to me it is pretty telling. The main problem with your analysis is that it's horribly incomplete. You chose SB teams over the last 10 years - which doesn't even equal the total number of teams in the league. So that doesn't give a complete analysis. What if there are teams that have a higher percentage of starters and ones taken in the first 3 rounds, but never made the SB? In other words, you haven't included any data that might disprove your theories - you've simply cherry picked info that supports your point and left everything else out. If this were a school assignment, you would get an "incomplete". As such, it's hardly persuasive. well professor zippy, you see, the whole point of all the information i posted was how jerry angelo's draft picks compared to other teams draftpicks that were good enough to make it to a SUPERBOWL. i know this is an extremely complicated scenario for you to grasp but i really don't care what the other 30 teams that FAILED to even reach the superbowl did each year. is that complete enough for you? QUOTE this doesn't even take into account the number of 1st day pick pro-bowl/all-pro players each team is sporting and comparing that to jerry angelo's draft picks which are TWO throughout the rosters from 2005 onward. NOT someone else in our organization who drafted urlacher, kreutz and mike brown. This is another set of stats that I think are useless without comparative measures. How many All-pro players are there per year? If you're talking just the first team, there is only 1 QB per year out of 32 teams that gets the award. It's too exclusive a measure and also tends to go to the most successful teams. That means it only has a tangential relation to quality. The same goes for Pro-bowls. You don't count special teams players (I'm guessing because it doesn't support your point) so do you count alternates? Also, it's tough to take seriously an accolade that is 1/3 voted by fans, and 2/3 by players and coaches that haven't even played against 1/2 the league in the year in which they are voting. what statistics you "think" are useless carries as much weight and importance in the world as the sunday paper comic strips. you ask... "How many All-pro players are there per year?" who gives a sh!%? i listed the ones that mattered - to compare these types of quality players on superbowl teams to OUR team. and this?... "The same goes for Pro-bowls." "it's tough to take seriously an accolade that is 1/3 voted by fans, and 2/3 by players and coaches". well maybe, LT3, you should inform the NFL of this so they can call you to get the names for pro-bowl players that really deserve to be there. i'm sure it would save them a lot of paperwork. and special team players?... "You don't count special team players (I'm guessing because it doesn't support your point)". a 'guess' from such an analytical genius like yourself? i'm shocked!! so why don't you get off your lazy azz and look them up yourself and dispute it with FACTS before you whine like a little girl about it? just to save you some time looking up stats (that you probably wouldn't have done anyway) i left out special team players because to 'me' it just plain doesn't matter that much how a GM drafts players for special teams. it is UNIMPORTANT to the general core of STARTING players on offense and defense that relate to your franchises health. QUOTE so don't you think 4 years is long enough for angelo's draft picks to develop? if not then look at the number of first day picks that were all-pro/pro-bowl players up to present on our roster. See above. If you were to expand your analysis to include every team every year, you would see that even in years where they don't make the playoffs, teams that play in the AFC East and NFC East have a disproportionate number of players that make All-pro/pro-bowl honors simply because they get more coverage by the press. Similarly, you will see that most players from the midwest and west that get those honors, either get them on reputation some years, or only in years that their teams do well on the field. In other words, it's a piss poor way to measure the quality of individual players. first of all, see above... who gives a sh!%? second of all... why don't YOU show the hard statistics and irrefutable data YOU used to determine that tripe? third of all, see above... again, why don't you inform the NFL that their methods of determining pro-bowl/all-pro players is "piss poor" and just have them call you to determine which players really deserve to be considered all-pro and which deserve to be in the pro-bowl. QUOTE the only team that equals us is the freaking oakland raiders with 'two' all-pro/pro-bowl players (the same as angelo's picks) on their roster and then look at their following 8 year records in the nfl. for that matter look at ours. other than the raiders, i believe we are one of 3 teams in the last 20-30+ years that never even made the playoffs for 3 straight years after a superbowl appearance. Which sounds about right since only 2 teams make the SB each year. The odds of something rare happening means it won't happen very often and doesn't add significance to the event. Oooooo Prater kicked a 50+ yarder to send the game to overtime AND a 50+ yarder to win it. He MUST be the BEST kicker of all time because it's never happened before. (Now think of everything you can to point out about how ridiculous that statement is and apply it to the relevance of the Bears missing the playoffs 3 consecutive years after appearing in a SB. (and BTW - I attribute that drop in production to Lovie hiring "his guys" after he got his contract extension after the SB. He totally messed up the chemistry on the defensive side with more or less the same players.) "Which sounds about right since only 2 teams make the SB each year." i already know the obvious so just enlighten me with the incredibly obvious. you think the odds are rare that a superbowl team doesn't make the playoffs for 3 straight years post superbowl? hmmmm... isn't that what i inferred? that it is rare. that it is not a good statistic to have? that it probably means the team in question may have some serious personnel quality problems? oh yea, that's right, there is not enough data to make a significant determination. 20-30 years just isn't enough time. well how much time do you need to reach your conclusions? three to four centuries? longer? yet YOU determine it was attributed to "Lovie hiring "his guys""? where is the hard data that supports this? oh that's right, it's just your OPINION that has no statistical fact or data to support it, right??? QUOTE hmmm... doesn't GS in NFL statistical data mean the number of games started for that player in a season? if not i guess i 'could' be wrong. but if GS does mean 'games started' maybe you should try your own "observational skills" on the links below and by all means let me know how i did (unless you don't believe their credibility or conclusions either). NFL official website: http://www.nfl.com/player/marcusharrison/2348/profile PRO-FOOTBALL-REFERENCE: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa98.htm EDIT NOTE: i never said m. harrison was a starter in 2010. i said in - 2009 - talk about observational skills You wrote "this season we got rid of these angelo first day pick starters… greg olsen our starting TE, marcus harrison our previous starting RDT" The usage of the time sensitive descriptors of "This season" and "our previous starting RDT" implies that we got rid of a recently valuable player. I mean gee whiz. Do you really want to refer to Harrison as a starter when after several years he only started 9 games in one season when the regular starter was injured? Why don't you give Tommie Harris the same level of accolade since he's started MANY more games than Harrison, was a previous starter, and left the roster the same year? I think it's because it didn't make the point you were after at the time as well. Dude - we've been down this road before. You come up with a premise, and then think of ways to cobble together a few stats that support your premise, and then claim that actually doing the analysis properly would take too much time. I seriously have no problem with anyone simply saying "I don't like Angelo or the way he drafts and we haven't won enough in the playoffs for my liking so I think he should be fired." That's fine. Just don't insult our intelligence with non-comparative data analysis and spin doctoring to try and make your point. I mean really? You mention Harrison as if it's a big deal but leave out Tommie Harris? Really? it boils down to this zippy pinhead... 1. i assume that you are admitting you didn't know what you were talking about and your "observational skills" didn't seem to be up to your own high standards when you stated " I do have to question your observational skills if you think that at any point Marcus Harrison was a starter in 2010" in your previous post? fact: he was a first day pick and he was a starter in 2009 like i stated whether it was for 1 game or a million!!! 2. "The usage of the time sensitive descriptors of "This season" and "our previous starting RDT" implies that we got rid of a recently valuable player, blah, blah, blah". really? a genius such as yourself can't comprehend such simple straightforward statements of fact and how to interpret them? where else but in your own mind have i stated that m. harrison was or is a VALUABLE starting player? in FACT it emphasizes the points i was making that he WASN'T a "valuable player". and while i'm at it, what in the hell does accolades for tommy harris have to do with anything at all? he was a first day pick and was released by this franchise. a simple fact i stated with accurate consistency. it appears your "observational skills" haven't improved any after your previous post. 3. although this may be redundant hopefully it finally sinks in as to the intent of this thread... the main point of my post was to show the importance of successful teams (superbowl teams specifically) drafting well and especially in the first three rounds of the draft compared to what our GM has done. a comparison of what jerry angelo's first day draft picks look like in quality and quantity compared to SUPERBOWL teams. THAT was the reason i listed the players who at least one time in their careers were good enough to have been recognized by everyone in the world but YOU as a quality player. the fewer 'quality' first day pick players the worse your drafts are and in my opinion the less chances you have of superbowl appearances or winning it if you get there. i also made the point that comparisons to the other jerry angelo first-day-pick players who DIDN'T make the pro-bowl/all-pro squads could and should be evaluated and compared to players from other superbowl teams (non PB/AP first day picks) specifically during ANGELO'S tenure. it's really not that difficult to understand. although i am sure you probably disagree but to me superbowl teams are the ultimate yardstick of where i want this franchise to be. NOT part of the other 30 teams in the NFL having good or bad seasons, just making the playoffs, or even losing superbowls, because in the end that doesn't mean jack sh!%. it's all about winning it all!! in other words, i wanted to compare the best every year to us, simple as that. finally... if you really need me to dumb it down more for you just let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selection7 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I think your both stoopid. (not really, I just wanted to get in on the fun) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balta1701-A Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Guys, can we avoid the name calling? Don't make me come back there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 We WILL avoid name calling and keep this CIVIL or else we will have no choice but to delete posts &/or ban offending parties. There is no need to resort to that type of behavior. We can discuss differences of opinion and still show respect to each other. We are all frustrated with what has happened, especially the last 3 weeks, but lets remember that everyone has a right to their opinion and that there is no reason to insult someone just because they disagree with your opinion or does not understand your perspective. I have had complaints sent to me via admin notification, please adhere to the rules of the forums. Disagree if you like, argue if you like, but show respect for each other, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I've made my points. I'm done. Yours Truly, Professor Zippy Pinhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selection7 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 In my scanning your post Luciano, I'm not seeing damning stats with respect to drafted starters. The SB winners range from 11-20 and Bear rosters range from 12-17 (might be off one or two). What is a little worrying is the lack of pro bowlers. But consider that winning a SB makes all your players more popular and higher profile, plus SB winners should have more pro bowlers than non-SB winners/non-participants like the Bears. Thanks for all that work scrounging the stats up though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Luciano Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 In my scanning your post Luciano, I'm not seeing damning stats with respect to drafted starters. The SB winners range from 11-20 and Bear rosters range from 12-17 (might be off one or two). What is a little worrying is the lack of pro bowlers. But consider that winning a SB makes all your players more popular and higher profile, plus SB winners should have more pro bowlers than non-SB winners/non-participants like the Bears. Thanks for all that work scrouning the stats up though. thanks for the comment. 1. all of the quality players i listed, including the bears, were not necessarily picked for the pro-bowl or voted in as all-pro during the listed superbowl year. it was spanning their total careers up to 2010. note: also, my personal belief is that if they were picked for those honors they at least had to be a quality player for those one or more seasons whether someone else or not deserved to go before them. thus it is the only reasonable yardsticks i know of to judge upper echelon talent in the NFL as i certainly can't watch every player or every game performed. 2. during jerry angelo's tenure in chicago he has drafted 26 players in rounds '1 through 3' over a nine year period (i did not count the 2011 draft). during those nine years only TWO players he drafted were good enough to go to the pro-bowl or be considered all-pro players. over that period of time. tommy harris (drafted 2004) and lance briggs (drafted 2003) are the ONLY players to do so between 2002 and the present. angelo's combined NINE YEAR **score = 2 or 9% - (the percentages are calculated for example, 2 against the combined 22 starters on offense and defense). 2. superbowl teams 'first day' draft picks that have gone to a pro-bowl or voted all-pro vs. angelo's, rounds 1 through 3 picks over the last nine years: 2002 bucs = 5 or 23% 2002 raiders = 2 or 9% 2003 patriots = 6 or 27% 2003 panthers = 7 or 32% 2004 patriots = 6 or 27% 2004 eagles = 7 or 32% 2005 steelers = 9 or 41% 2005 seahawks = 6 or 27% 2006 colts = 7 or 32% 2006 bears (jerry angelo's picks) = 2 or 9% 2007 giants = 6 or 27% 2007 patriots = 5 or 23% 2008 steelers = 7 or 32% 2008 cardinals = 6 or 27% 2009 saints = 3 or 14% 2009 colts = 5 or 23% 2010 packers = 5 or 23% 2010 steelers = 7 or 32% 3. this data was not necessarily intended as conclusive evidence on it's own to determine whether jerry angelo is a good GM or not. it is just one tool to help compare the qualities of his drafts to the best teams in the NFL during the period of time he has been in chicago. if you feel as i do that drafting quality players in rounds 1-3 is paramount to the health of your franchise this data should help in making an educated decision on how he has done. **what does this mean? that of the starting roster on offense and defense, 22 players, only 2 players of 26 picked by jerry angelo in the first day of the draft have been considered high quality players and gone to a pro-bowl or voted all-pro. that comes to approximately 9% of the starting roster of 22 players. that to me is a pretty poor percentage rate compared to the rest of the superbowl teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 That's how I looked at your info. I come from the school of Mark Twain, that there are lies, damn lies and statistics... But, I do find it interesting to look at numbers. (I am a damn accountant after all...) I agree with the basic premise that JA sucks. I have thought so for years. He doesn't pass the smell test at minimum. He reeks. 3. this data was not necessarily intended as conclusive evidence on it's own to determine whether jerry angelo is a good GM or not. it is just one tool to help compare the qualities of his drafts to the best teams in the NFL during the period of time he has been in chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selection7 Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Realistically, Angelo can't be satisfied with only two drafted elite players in almost 10 years. But technically, you're better off getting pro-bowlers in the 7th round where they're cheaper, which maybe leads me to think that it doesn't matter what round you get 'em, as long as you get 'em. The problem with that mentality is that a hypothetical GM who has drafted several late round pro-bowlers has probably just gotten lucky...especially considering that same GM would've had to pass on those same players in earlier rounds (or they wouldn't be late round picks). Anyway, that's just me being ponderous since JA doesn't have any late-round pro-bowlers either, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balta1701-A Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Realistically, Angelo can't be satisfied with only two drafted elite players in almost 10 years. But technically, you're better off getting pro-bowlers in the 7th round where they're cheaper, which maybe leads me to think that it doesn't matter what round you get 'em, as long as you get 'em. The problem with that mentality is that a hypothetical GM who has drafted several late round pro-bowlers has probably just gotten lucky...especially considering that same GM would've had to pass on those same players in earlier rounds (or they wouldn't be late round picks). Anyway, that's just me being ponderous since JA doesn't have any late-round pro-bowlers either, lol. I'll say again here...a big problem with tallying up pro-bowlers or elite players for this team is that the Bears gave up 2 first rounders for Jay Cutler. 2 first rounders is a big price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GakMan23 Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Realistically, Angelo can't be satisfied with only two drafted elite players in almost 10 years. But technically, you're better off getting pro-bowlers in the 7th round where they're cheaper, which maybe leads me to think that it doesn't matter what round you get 'em, as long as you get 'em. The problem with that mentality is that a hypothetical GM who has drafted several late round pro-bowlers has probably just gotten lucky...especially considering that same GM would've had to pass on those same players in earlier rounds (or they wouldn't be late round picks). Anyway, that's just me being ponderous since JA doesn't have any late-round pro-bowlers either, lol. The pool of talent picked in the later picks is deluded and it would be more difficult finding a probowl caliber player later in the draft. Half of JA's problem is he seems to enjoy trading down, the other half is that he is the one picking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Luciano Posted December 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 I'll say again here...a big problem with tallying up pro-bowlers or elite players for this team is that the Bears gave up 2 first rounders for Jay Cutler. 2 first rounders is a big price. i really did not want to get into FA trades and such here which is food for a different thread. but as you brought it up... 1. over the 9 years we have been discussing, 2002-2010, the normal amount of picks for any team in the first three rounds comes out to 27 picks. jerry angelo had 26 picks in rounds 1-3. A) jerry angelo has had 7 first round picks during this period as opposed to 9 which would have been normal even after the cutler deal and trading out in 2006. jerry angelo had 7 second round picks out of 9 even after he squandered a 2nd round pick on a DE who was riding the pine, adams, and he traded out of the 2nd round in 2002 C) jerry angelo had 12 third round picks out of 9. 2. if jerry angelo was a good judge of offensive talent would we have had to give up 2 first rounders for a quarterback in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.