DABEARSDABOMB Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 I do think if you brought in a GM like the Ravens guy (who is the top candidate in the league) and the Bears loved him and he was in with the exception that he needed to have a shot to bring in his coach, than I'd probably do it. However, when I look down the list of NFL head coaches, I only see 5 coaches better than Lovie in this league: 1. Bellicheck 2. Sean Payton 3. McCarthy 4. Tomlin 5. Reid I think anyone else and you can make an argument Lovie is better. The next list, which includes Lovie, also includes Mike Smith, the Harbaugh Brothers, Shanny (I might include him in the top group), and Rex Ryan (who I happen to hate). You could also argue for Kubiak (who I'm a huge fan of). Which means, if you agree with my list, at worse, Lovie is the 11th or 12th best coach in the league. I happen to think he rates on par with everyone else on the list of this group of candidates and most definitely ahead of Rex. I realize Bears fans have problem with the guy but his teams play hard for him week in and week out. They respect him and he by and large gets the most out of his players. While you may think this are not a big deal, the reality in the NFL is that the vast majority of coaches don't get this out of there players. Some might be a little shrewder in the in-game decisions but Lovie has improved on the in-game adjustments to the point that he's at least average. He excels at getting his guys ready to play though and that is why I think at worse he is a top 8 coach in this league and I don't understand why we are ready to kick him to the curb. I'm not going to fire him because people don't like the way he uses "coach speak" to the press, thats for sure. I do know that he had this team playing at a high-level prior to injuries and never once used injuries as an excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockren Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 I believe very few Bears fans actually "want" Lovie fired. I do however feel most deem it at least necessary reference Angelo's firing. I was one that wanted him gone two years ago....but his ability to help sway Peppers here and the fact that these guys won't just play for him, but run through a friggin' wall for him speaks volumes. Not too mention I appreciate how much of a true leader, a true man and holds christian values which is a rarity these days. I do, however, feel Lovie should be let go since Angelo was let go because you have to replace Angelo with a guy who should want his own head coach. It's nothing against Lovie, but that's just how it is. (I apologize if I echoed the sentiment that has already been echoed by myself and everyone else, but it deserves to be mentioned in every thread pertaining to Lovie's dismissal) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 It's definitely an odd situation. Lovie's positives: -Gets players to play hard -Players love him -Players are willing to stand by him and persuade others to come to the team Lovie's negatives: -Defensive system is outdated and flawed -Won't step on an opponent's throat when leading a game -Believes in "playing not to lose" more than "playing to win" -Almost exclusively hires his cronies and friends -Nearly a complete failure at player development -Has horrible game management -Has even worse time management -Has even worse instant replay intuition -Has even worse press conferences -And if he was involved in the draft, he's much more interested in his defense than offense\ All that said, if he can continue to bring in big name free agents, it's easier to overlook his flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Well put... It's definitely an odd situation. Lovie's positives: -Gets players to play hard -Players love him -Players are willing to stand by him and persuade others to come to the team Lovie's negatives: -Defensive system is outdated and flawed -Won't step on an opponent's throat when leading a game -Believes in "playing not to lose" more than "playing to win" -Almost exclusively hires his cronies and friends -Nearly a complete failure at player development -Has horrible game management -Has even worse time management -Has even worse instant replay intuition -Has even worse press conferences -And if he was involved in the draft, he's much more interested in his defense than offense\ All that said, if he can continue to bring in big name free agents, it's easier to overlook his flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 It's definitely an odd situation. Lovie's positives: -Gets players to play hard -Players love him -Players are willing to stand by him and persuade others to come to the team Lovie's negatives: -Defensive system is outdated and flawed -Won't step on an opponent's throat when leading a game -Believes in "playing not to lose" more than "playing to win" -Almost exclusively hires his cronies and friends -Nearly a complete failure at player development -Has horrible game management -Has even worse time management -Has even worse instant replay intuition -Has even worse press conferences -And if he was involved in the draft, he's much more interested in his defense than offense\ All that said, if he can continue to bring in big name free agents, it's easier to overlook his flaws. Also agree w/ Jason's pros/cons. I think Lovie does well getting a game plan set and sometimes they work beautifully, but more often than not most of our games are ugly wins. He probably has the highest tenure coaching staff and it seems we still have the same issues every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DABEARSDABOMB Posted January 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 It's definitely an odd situation. Lovie's positives: -Gets players to play hard -Players love him -Players are willing to stand by him and persuade others to come to the team Lovie's negatives: -Defensive system is outdated and flawed -Won't step on an opponent's throat when leading a game -Believes in "playing not to lose" more than "playing to win" -Almost exclusively hires his cronies and friends -Nearly a complete failure at player development -Has horrible game management -Has even worse time management -Has even worse instant replay intuition -Has even worse press conferences -And if he was involved in the draft, he's much more interested in his defense than offense\ All that said, if he can continue to bring in big name free agents, it's easier to overlook his flaws. I'll point out a couple of the negatives and make an argument hte other way: 1. Won't step on an opponents throat when leading a game - Has a tremendous record while leading at the half (42-8); League average (since 2002) was 71%. Lovie is at 84% at. Has a tremendous record when leading after the 3rd as well (far better than the NFL average). 2. Marinelli was regarded as the best Dline coach in the league. I don't care if he was a cronie or not, the Bears were lucky to have him and I've never heard of any player over his entire career saying anything bad about the dude. Mike Tice is also regarded as one of, if not the very best position coach as well. Martz was regarded as one of the best offensive minds ever. He failed but he had a track record and Martz didn't let his friendship get in the way of giving him the boot (and Martz was given the boot, they are just being nice saying he resigned). 3. Press conferences - Who cares. Belliceck doesn't say a thing at his press conferences; Whats it matter. Press conferences don't win games. 4. Believing not to lose - Has a pretty solid winning percentage in his history as coach. Plus this is all just speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DABEARSDABOMB Posted January 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Also agree w/ Jason's pros/cons. I think Lovie does well getting a game plan set and sometimes they work beautifully, but more often than not most of our games are ugly wins. He probably has the highest tenure coaching staff and it seems we still have the same issues every year. He has the exact opposite. He has had tons of coaches during his tenure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I'll point out a couple of the negatives and make an argument hte other way: 1. Won't step on an opponents throat when leading a game - Has a tremendous record while leading at the half (42-8); League average (since 2002) was 71%. Lovie is at 84% at. Has a tremendous record when leading after the 3rd as well (far better than the NFL average). Um, except that is something completely different. You just basically supported my statement. Has he held on to wins while having the lead? It appears so. Does he step on their necks and put games away? Absolutely not. You didn't come close to even hitting this one in the same ball park. 2. Marinelli was regarded as the best Dline coach in the league. I don't care if he was a cronie or not, the Bears were lucky to have him and I've never heard of any player over his entire career saying anything bad about the dude. Mike Tice is also regarded as one of, if not the very best position coach as well. Martz was regarded as one of the best offensive minds ever. He failed but he had a track record and Martz didn't let his friendship get in the way of giving him the boot (and Martz was given the boot, they are just being nice saying he resigned). Very true, both are considered good at their positions. Both are well liked. But I haven't seen that much out of the DL under Marinelli's tenure. If anything, Peppers seems a bit less impactful overall than when he was in Carolina. And Tice, regardless of how much people think of him, has improved the OL very little while in Chicago. Regardless of all the fluff media pieces, the OL still sucks, and there has been nearly no noticable improvement from anyone other than probably Louis. 3. Press conferences - Who cares. Belliceck doesn't say a thing at his press conferences; Whats it matter. Press conferences don't win games. Agreed. They don't win games. But the difference is, Bellichek doesn't straight up lie to us. He just deadpans. Oh, and he's a significantly better coach than Lovie. And by significantly better, I mean it's so uneven it's comical. So he's got that, and his three Super Bowl wins, going for him. 4. Believing not to lose - Has a pretty solid winning percentage in his history as coach. Plus this is all just speculation. The Lovie-2 scheme, by design, tries to significantly slow down the game, hope for turnovers, but rarely does it actually attack. It dares the opponent to go slowly down the field, piece by piece. He'd prefer his offenses to play the same way. It's not "believing" not to lose; it's "playing" not to lose. Of course he wants to win. But to do so, he plays not to lose. This is kind of the same thing as #1. When Lovie's teams get the lead, they don't continue to crush the opponent. Sometimes the accumulation of effort leads to a lopsided score, but it's not common. A ten point lead and Lovie is looking at the clock. This is not speculation; it's exactly what has happened the entire time he has been in Chicago. Being content with holding on to the lead is what Lovie is all about. It's been moderately successful while he's been here, but it's not the same as being aggressive and trying to put the game out of reach (i.e. "playing to win"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bears4Ever_34 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I just want a new face, even if it's a lateral move. I'm just tired of Lovie. He's had decent results with this team during his tenure but there aren't that many coaches that keep there jobs if they only make the playoffs once in the last 5 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TerraTor Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 It's definitely an odd situation. Lovie's positives: -Gets players to play hard -Players love him -Players are willing to stand by him and persuade others to come to the team Lovie's negatives: -Defensive system is outdated and flawed -Won't step on an opponent's throat when leading a game -Believes in "playing not to lose" more than "playing to win" -Almost exclusively hires his cronies and friends -Nearly a complete failure at player development -Has horrible game management -Has even worse time management -Has even worse instant replay intuition -Has even worse press conferences -And if he was involved in the draft, he's much more interested in his defense than offense\ All that said, if he can continue to bring in big name free agents, it's easier to overlook his flaws. I just think its gonna be tuff to get a GM worth his ass to take a job with a coach on a contract year and basically hot seat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I completely understand. I just want a new face, even if it's a lateral move. I'm just tired of Lovie. He's had decent results with this team during his tenure but there aren't that many coaches that keep there jobs if they only make the playoffs once in the last 5 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 From the other thread, Lovie has had 28 ex-Assistants. At some point you have to look in the mirror. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 And Tice, regardless of how much people think of him, has improved the OL very little while in Chicago. Regardless of all the fluff media pieces, the OL still sucks, and there has been nearly no noticable improvement from anyone other than probably Louis. There is quite literally no talent on this OL and Tice made them look reasonable after a few bad games each season. He's also suffered from some piss-poor timing on luck with injuries. He's planned to go into a season or game with this line-up or another and then someone will invariably go down, sometimes for the whole year. Once again, Jason, you prove to be the most black/white poster on the board. Everything is so horribly wrong with someone when you decide you hate them. Fact is, Lovie will be hired for another job as soon as the Bears decide to let him go. Not that that means too much but the guy is certainly respected in the league, that's all I'm saying. It's a lot easier to shoot from the sidelines (the internet) than to be out there swinging an axe, working hard and getting your players to see that and respect you. The sad fact is this isn't black/white. There are some things about these changes that will be bad for the team. And the bears have a track record of poor decisions from the top that suggests to me we'll probably hire someone for both OC and GM who doesn't work out as well as what we've seen from JA and Lovie's crew over this last decade. I hope like hell they do and I'll love and support them regardless but I'm very leery this is all going to somehow all just work out perfectly. Firing Lovie and adding that additional question mark to next season, after he led a team I don't feel is stacked with talent to the conference championship and what would've certainly been a playoff appearance this year but for Cutler and Forte going down... I don't know. Hate him all you want, he isn't perfect, but I'd take my chances on him for another year or two and see what happens. Hopefully the GM they hire feels like he's inheriting an asset in Lovie Smith and they become a solid team leading this franchise forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 There is quite literally no talent on this OL and Tice made them look reasonable after a few bad games each season. He's also suffered from some piss-poor timing on luck with injuries. He's planned to go into a season or game with this line-up or another and then someone will invariably go down, sometimes for the whole year. Once again, Jason, you prove to be the most black/white poster on the board. Everything is so horribly wrong with someone when you decide you hate them. Fact is, Lovie will be hired for another job as soon as the Bears decide to let him go. Not that that means too much but the guy is certainly respected in the league, that's all I'm saying. It's a lot easier to shoot from the sidelines (the internet) than to be out there swinging an axe, working hard and getting your players to see that and respect you. The sad fact is this isn't black/white. There are some things about these changes that will be bad for the team. And the bears have a track record of poor decisions from the top that suggests to me we'll probably hire someone for both OC and GM who doesn't work out as well as what we've seen from JA and Lovie's crew over this last decade. I hope like hell they do and I'll love and support them regardless but I'm very leery this is all going to somehow all just work out perfectly. Firing Lovie and adding that additional question mark to next season, after he led a team I don't feel is stacked with talent to the conference championship and what would've certainly been a playoff appearance this year but for Cutler and Forte going down... I don't know. Hate him all you want, he isn't perfect, but I'd take my chances on him for another year or two and see what happens. Hopefully the GM they hire feels like he's inheriting an asset in Lovie Smith and they become a solid team leading this franchise forward. Isn't the entire point to the first post I made in this thread the very proof that I'm not thinking of this in a black and white manner? When/if the Bears let go of Lovie, he will certainly be rehird, but that has just as much to do with the respect thing as it does with constant recycling of coaches in the professional ranks. The simple fact is, Lovie is a really nice guy, doesn't appear to be too demanding, he's fiercely loyal, runs a really soft mini-camp that the players love, and absolutely never throws anyone under the bus. That's why he's respected. Which is good. But what isn't good is the fact that when people say Lovie is respected, they rarely mention his ability to coach, to create gameplans, to adjust to game situations, or to improve his players' abilities. BTW - I like that you said there is "quite literally no talent on this OL." Far too many people are talking themselves into the idea that Webb, E.Williams, Omiyale, Spencer, and Louis aren't at best average, and at worst atrocious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Isn't the entire point to the first post I made in this thread the very proof that I'm not thinking of this in a black and white manner? Not really. Your three positives could be boiled down to one: He's a players coach. Then you go on to say he sucks at everything else. And that sucky coach led the Bears to within a TD of being in the Superbowl last year after his franchise QB went down in the Conference Championship. Look, I don't like a lot of things Lovie's done over the years either. I just hate all the "experts" on this board piling on. Jeez, let the body get a little cold before we start picking at the corpse. And yes, this OL is in need of a complete makeover. 3 bodies in my estimation, minimum. I'm just hoping the next GM walks in the door with that in mind. We have a QB we need to protect now, let's not let him get sacked at near record levels going forward. Once again, the largest failure of the JA regime in Chicago, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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