Starting to get worried about the Oline

[Chitownhustla]

JA said last year they were happy with the Oline unit as a whole and that it would take time for them to gel as a unit. Everyone else has been calling for an upgrade to he Oline for the last 4 to 5 years. The last decent oline we had was 06 when Thomas Jones and Benson had a good year. Emery takes over and the only big thing that has been done was the Marshal trade.

 

Two things that we know- Williams and Carmi are coming back. This will help the oline unit as a hole. We dont know if Williams is being put back at LT as stated in another thread.

 

 

My major concern is the LT spot. Webb in my eyes is not good enough to be a starter and should only be a backup in case someone goes down.

 

RT- Carmi= im good to roll with him

RG- Louis= im good to roll with him'

C- Garza= im good to roll with him

RG- Williams= Im good to roll with him here- thought he played well there before his injury

RT- Webb= needs to be replaced. Now if Williams is being moved here then the RG needs to replaced.

 

Last year we had both our first round OL picks go down with injuries and the oline unit as a whole went to complete crap. Cutlers ablitly to scrammble made the unit look better than it really was. Once Cutler went down we really saw how bad the unit was as a whole. So what has me worried is that nothing has been done to upgrade the oline, starter or backups.

 

Is Emery only going to try to upgrade the oline in the Draft??? If they darft a LT then IF the rest of the oline stays healthy we should be alright. That is a big IF. The reports only have said that Herrera has been spoken too. If Emery is thinking that the oline is needed to be upgraded dont you think he would have talked to more OL then him???

 

 

Im not freaking out at this point but would have liked to see more action then what we haev seen so far.

[jason]

Starting to get worried? Was the last four or five years not enough to get you fired up?

[Chitownhustla]

Starting to get worried? Was the last four or five years not enough to get you fired up?

 

 

Sorry i thought i got the point across, worried that Emery is thinking the same way JA did. This would be the norm with JA, nothing really being done with the OL. With Emery i thought we would see more action or at least more interviews with some potential OL in FA. But all we know now is the Herrera has been interviewed and that is it.

[Stinger226]

JA said last year they were happy with the Oline unit as a whole and that it would take time for them to gel as a unit. Everyone else has been calling for an upgrade to he Oline for the last 4 to 5 years. The last decent oline we had was 06 when Thomas Jones and Benson had a good year. Emery takes over and the only big thing that has been done was the Marshal trade.

 

Two things that we know- Williams and Carmi are coming back. This will help the oline unit as a hole. We dont know if Williams is being put back at LT as stated in another thread.

 

 

My major concern is the LT spot. Webb in my eyes is not good enough to be a starter and should only be a backup in case someone goes down.

 

RT- Carmi= im good to roll with him

RG- Louis= im good to roll with him'

C- Garza= im good to roll with him

RG- Williams= Im good to roll with him here- thought he played well there before his injury

RT- Webb= needs to be replaced. Now if Williams is being moved here then the RG needs to replaced.

 

Last year we had both our first round OL picks go down with injuries and the oline unit as a whole went to complete crap. Cutlers ablitly to scrammble made the unit look better than it really was. Once Cutler went down we really saw how bad the unit was as a whole. So what has me worried is that nothing has been done to upgrade the oline, starter or backups.

 

Is Emery only going to try to upgrade the oline in the Draft??? If they darft a LT then IF the rest of the oline stays healthy we should be alright. That is a big IF. The reports only have said that Herrera has been spoken too. If Emery is thinking that the oline is needed to be upgraded dont you think he would have talked to more OL then him???

 

 

Im not freaking out at this point but would have liked to see more action then what we haev seen so far.

If we stick with that lineup, we need to bring in at least two Ols, so we have some options if they fail again. A guard and a tackle.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

There's a quote out there that Emery says they'll seriously address the OL via the draft. So, if the draft comes and goes and the OL is the same lineup, then I'd be worried about Emery thinking the same way as Angelo did.

[Stinger226]

There's a quote out there that Emery says they'll seriously address the OL via the draft. So, if the draft comes and goes and the OL is the same lineup, then I'd be worried about Emery thinking the same way as Angelo did.

I would say so far he has passed the test, we will know more by training camp to judge him.

[Bears4Ever_34]

The only part of the line that I'm overly concerned with is LT. If Carimi proves to be worth his draft selection and everyone can stay healthy, we should be okay for this season. I'm interested in seeing how the new offensive scheme plays out, which should be more offensive line friendly than the last one.

[Guest TerraTor]

There's a quote out there that Emery says they'll seriously address the OL via the draft. So, if the draft comes and goes and the OL is the same lineup, then I'd be worried about Emery thinking the same way as Angelo did.

 

 

I dont see how spending 60M on a guard makes the team better (Nicks)

 

Draft G's and OT's in 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc.... Nicks was a 5th by the way...

 

I am sure guys will be more than serviceable that come out of later/mid rounds

 

 

This team needs impact and playmakers (like Marshall)

[Alaskan Grizzly]

So what happened to Spencer? Seems to me that he managed to play Guard pretty well last year and is normally a Center. Yet he's not listed anywhere in your "lineup".

 

I don't get this "panic" some are expressing here. The team was 7-3(??) before Cutler got hurt. And as Terra pointed out that was not due to an OL breakdown. Again, and it bears repeating, picking an olineman anywhere earlier than 2nd round is a wasted pick. Again this is my humble opinion but a skill player is what is needed in 1st and sometimes 2nd round. The Bears are better off looking at a WR or CB before OL in the draft. Look some more in FA for OL help. Heck we got until June.

[chwtom]

I think they are thinking the line will go:

LT: Williams or Webb

LG: Edwin Williams

C: Garza

RG: Spencer

RT: Carimi

 

I don't think they are signing anyone to be the starter at this point, so I think we'll probably be looking at mid-round picks to develop and maybe compete for a spot this year.

 

I also think the lack of a pro personnel director is hurting them right now. It might be why we didn't see any real moves made beyond the Marshall trade. Emery has no experience with pro personnel, and he does''t have anyone in place to help him with it beyond the coaching staff and some advance scouts. I think it would've made some sense to keep whats his name from Seattle around until the offseason ended to help with pro personnel matters.

[Stinger226]

So what happened to Spencer? Seems to me that he managed to play Guard pretty well last year and is normally a Center. Yet he's not listed anywhere in your "lineup".

 

I don't get this "panic" some are expressing here. The team was 7-3(??) before Cutler got hurt. And as Terra pointed out that was not due to an OL breakdown. Again, and it bears repeating, picking an olineman anywhere earlier than 2nd round is a wasted pick. Again this is my humble opinion but a skill player is what is needed in 1st and sometimes 2nd round. The Bears are better off looking at a WR or CB before OL in the draft. Look some more in FA for OL help. Heck we got until June.

The panic comes into play, because if we retry what we have already done,then what? We need a couple of options if it doesnt work. First we need a LT and the first round is the one place to find it. You can find WRs any where on the board. OGs and OCs you can later in the draft. We need to bulid our offense while we have blue chip players in place. Cutler, Forte, and now Marshall.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

CB is a need, but this defense does not need a RD1 talent for its philosphy. I think a RD3 pick plus Jennings would be sufficient. RD1 needs to be one of the following:

 

DE: Quinton Coples, Nick Perry, or Whitney Mercilus

 

Looks like we can be inline for a top tier DE. Coples wearing NC blue and his size reminds me of Pepper, Perry is a little smaller and more athletic, and Mercilus is a hometown boy that performed well in the Big-10

 

OLT: Jonathon Martin, Mike Adams, Cordy Glenn

 

Chances are Martin will be long gone, but some mocks have had Adams available. Glenn can be drafted as a lock at G with possiblity of moving outside

 

WR: Michael Floyd

 

Some experts think he will be drafted anywhere from 14-22, we would have to really think about adding another big playmaker but the need isn't as high after Marshall.

 

RD2: Bobby Massie OLT, Zebrie Sanders OLT, Vinny Curry DE, Justin Criner WR, Reuben Randle WR, Brian Quick WR

 

RD3: Brandon Boykin CB, Casey Hayward CB, Trumaine Johnson CB, Marvin Jones WR, Marvin McNutt WR, Al Toon WR, AJ Jenkins WR,

 

How I see the draft going:

RD1- DE Quinton Coples

RD2- OLT Zebrie Sanders

RD3- WR Marvin McNutt

RD4- CB Chase Minnefield

RD5- TE Ladarius Green

RD6- OLB Oliver Vernon

RD7- OLB Josh Kaddu

[jason]

Sorry i thought i got the point across, worried that Emery is thinking the same way JA did. This would be the norm with JA, nothing really being done with the OL. With Emery i thought we would see more action or at least more interviews with some potential OL in FA. But all we know now is the Herrera has been interviewed and that is it.

 

Ahhh...I get you now. I share the concern but will reserve overall judgement until the draft.

[jason]

I dont see how spending 60M on a guard makes the team better (Nicks)

 

Draft G's and OT's in 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc.... Nicks was a 5th by the way...

 

I am sure guys will be more than serviceable that come out of later/mid rounds

 

This team needs impact and playmakers (like Marshall)

 

You will see it when Legarratte Blunt rushes for a career high this year.

 

I'm all for drafting Olinemen, but following up your first statement when Nicks' draft placement is disingenuous. Nicks was a 5th rounder, but that's not to say finding a stud OG in the 5th round is common or easy. He's the aberration.

 

I would counter with this thought: What's cheaper? Is it cheaper to build a team with FA skill position players; or, is it cheaper to build a team with FA OLinemen? I'd say it's probably cheaper to go with the latter option. This kind of thinking goes back a long way. I can think of Alvin Harper right off the bat. David Boston. Javon Walker. All went from teams that had pretty secure QBs and OL to teams that had neither QB position security nor OL protection. Look what happened. Other FAs may buck this trend - I didn't dig hard - but it seems to me signing OL to protect the #1 investment is a much better way to build than going out and signing skill position players who usually get set up to fail based upon the Peter Principle (i.e. a #2 signed to be a #1) and are more likely to be tempermental. Give Jay Cutler an all-pro OL, and he'll elevate guys like Knox and Hester into what everyone is currently clamoring for.

 

Thought of another way, since Manning is all-sports all-day, look at the collection of scrubs that have run through Indy, a place with a stable OL and incredibly stable QB, but have fallen off the map otherwise:

 

Torrance Small - Career Year with Manning

Terrance Wilkins - Dropped off the map without QB/OL

Troy Walters - Out of football shortly after Indy

Brandon Stokely - 1000yd season with Indy, not close after

Anthony Gonzalez - Blew up first two years, got injured...we'll see how he does with N.E.

Austin Collie - Blew up first two years, will probably never do as well

Blair White - Blew up rookie year, nothing since

 

To be fair, the one player who radically bucks the trend is Jerome Pathon. He went from Indy to New Orleans, a place with a steady QB (Aaron Brooks) and a decent OL.

 

Signing a guy like Carl Nicks makes a lot of sense to me. It's just too bad the Bears are apparently happy with the collective of guys that other teams would throw away like trash.

[Guest TerraTor]

CB is a need, but this defense does not need a RD1 talent for its philosphy. I think a RD3 pick plus Jennings would be sufficient. RD1 needs to be one of the following:

 

DE: Quinton Coples, Nick Perry, or Whitney Mercilus

 

Looks like we can be inline for a top tier DE. Coples wearing NC blue and his size reminds me of Pepper, Perry is a little smaller and more athletic, and Mercilus is a hometown boy that performed well in the Big-10

 

OLT: Jonathon Martin, Mike Adams, Cordy Glenn

 

Chances are Martin will be long gone, but some mocks have had Adams available. Glenn can be drafted as a lock at G with possiblity of moving outside

 

WR: Michael Floyd

 

Some experts think he will be drafted anywhere from 14-22, we would have to really think about adding another big playmaker but the need isn't as high after Marshall.

 

RD2: Bobby Massie OLT, Zebrie Sanders OLT, Vinny Curry DE, Justin Criner WR, Reuben Randle WR, Brian Quick WR

 

RD3: Brandon Boykin CB, Casey Hayward CB, Trumaine Johnson CB, Marvin Jones WR, Marvin McNutt WR, Al Toon WR, AJ Jenkins WR,

 

How I see the draft going:

RD1- DE Quinton Coples

RD2- OLT Zebrie Sanders

RD3- WR Marvin McNutt

RD4- CB Chase Minnefield

RD5- TE Ladarius Green

RD6- OLB Oliver Vernon

RD7- OLB Josh Kaddu

 

Dammit i love that draft...

[Chitownhustla]

There's a quote out there that Emery says they'll seriously address the OL via the draft. So, if the draft comes and goes and the OL is the same lineup, then I'd be worried about Emery thinking the same way as Angelo did.

 

 

This makes me feel a little warm and fuzzy inside. Big thing to take in count, i feel we are in a catch 22 here. Carmi may not be able to stay healthy and even if Williams is put in at LT we possibly have 2 OT spots left up in the air. If Willkiams cant perform at LT then you have to put him back at the RG spot because he has performed well there. Carmi's knee should be a major concern, if he cant stay on the field then RT is going to be screwed.

 

 

So if the worst case happens we could have LT and RT being screwed. Webb sucks and can only be a backup in my eyes. If Williams sucks then he can be plugged in at G.

 

The only way to be safe is drafting a T that could play G so that if Williams and Carmi pan out you plug the new T in at G and you are all set. This tho takes the drafting BPA in the first out of the running unless you feel that in the 2nd you could get a T that could play both T and G.

[AZ54]

I don't think Carimi's knee issue is that bad. I read up on the surgery and it seemed fairly routine with a high likelihood of return to full strength and full range of motion. I thought I read recently he said he was pain free.

[jason]

So what happened to Spencer? Seems to me that he managed to play Guard pretty well last year and is normally a Center. Yet he's not listed anywhere in your "lineup".

 

I don't get this "panic" some are expressing here. The team was 7-3(??) before Cutler got hurt. And as Terra pointed out that was not due to an OL breakdown. Again, and it bears repeating, picking an olineman anywhere earlier than 2nd round is a wasted pick. Again this is my humble opinion but a skill player is what is needed in 1st and sometimes 2nd round. The Bears are better off looking at a WR or CB before OL in the draft. Look some more in FA for OL help. Heck we got until June.

 

That play Cutler got hurt on wasn't the fault of the OL, but there were certainly ample opportunities for him to get demolished behind the OL. Spencer, along with Louis, Edwin Williams, and Webb were somewhere between horrible and average. Louis is probably the only one of the group closer to average. The team was 7-3 in spite of the OL, not because of them. It's just like the years with Wanny and Jauron; when the Bears won, it was often not because of the coaching, but in spite of them.

 

On another note, your logic can be used against you. The Bears were 7-3 before Cutler got injured, so they couldn't have been doing too bad on offense or defense. Right? Obviously it's too simplistic a statement to really apply towards the entire team or a unit. Record is just is not indicative of anything other than overall team success. I can't be expressed enough how bad the OL was. And because several have short memories, or get enamored with big name skill position players, or choose to misrepresent how bad the OL was because they know others won't fact check, the facts need to always be on the front burner:

 

Rushing

-Last in negative plays rushing right

-10th worst in negative plays rushing left

-Last in number of rushes stuffed behind or at the LOS

 

Passing

-5th worst in sacks allowed

-5th worst in QB hits allowed

-Last in adjusted sack rate (i.e. sacks divided by pass plays)

 

In your humble opinion it's a waste to draft OL early, but in my humble opinion that philosophy has greatly contributed to the Bears having one of the worst offenses in the league for quite some time.

2011 - 24th (Webb, Williams, Garza, Spencer, Louis)

2010 - 30th (Omiyale, Williams, Kruetz, Garza, Webb)

2009 - 23rd (Pace, Omiyale, Kruetz, Garza, Williams)

2008 - 26th (St. Clair, Beekman, Kruetz, Garza, Tait)

2007 - 27th (Tait, Brown, Kruetz, Garza, Miller)

2006 - 15th (Tait, Brown, Kruetz, Garza, Miller)

2005 - 29th (Tait, Brown, Kruetz, Metcalf, Miller)

2004 - 32nd (Q.Mitchell, Brown, Kruetz, Edwards, Tait)

2003 - 28th (Gandy, Edwards, Kruetz, Villarrial, Gibson)

2002 - 29th (Gandy, Doggins, Kruetz, Villarrial, Williams)

 

See a trend? The ONLY time in the past ten years the Bears had moderate offensive success was 2006. The year they went to the Super Bowl. The year they had 4 out of 5 guys at the same position from the year before. The year they replaced the one weak spot from the year before with a better player. The year they had a solid starter at every position. The year they had 2 first-rounders playing next to one another. The fact that they found Kruetz in the third is great. The fact that they signed Miller in the twilight of his career is more lightning in a bottle than anything. A 5th rounder can't be expected to produce as consistently as Miller did. And Garza has been a very nice surprise.

 

I'm not saying early picks on OL is the only way to go, but given the past decade of Bears successes and failures, I'd say it gives you a definite offensive advantage.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Well heres how I see it Jason. Stats can be skewed how you wanna view them. (Ask politicians). For example where you see a trend of lackluster play by the Oline over the course of years you illustrate, I see that the difference between 2010 and '11 is that the line improved. And that Omiyale wasn't listed for last years lineup.

 

My point is that of the Bears' last two 1st round picks, two were OLmen. And more specifically they were both LTs. And of the two of them, neither played more than Webb did last year at the position. Am I suggesting that Webb (a seventh rounder?) is better than both Williams and Carimi at their "natural" positions? Nope. I'm just saying that picking an OLman with the 1st pick does not guarantee success. Whereas using the 1st round pick on a skill player is a better investment. And with the other key players already in place (Cutler, Forte and Marshall) it is that much more a wiser choice.

[Stinger226]

Well heres how I see it Jason. Stats can be skewed how you wanna view them. (Ask politicians). For example where you see a trend of lackluster play by the Oline over the course of years you illustrate, I see that the difference between 2010 and '11 is that the line improved. And that Omiyale wasn't listed for last years lineup.

 

My point is that of the Bears' last two 1st round picks, two were OLmen. And more specifically they were both LTs. And of the two of them, neither played more than Webb did last year at the position. Am I suggesting that Webb (a seventh rounder?) is better than both Williams and Carimi at their "natural" positions? Nope. I'm just saying that picking an OLman with the 1st pick does not guarantee success. Whereas using the 1st round pick on a skill player is a better investment. And with the other key players already in place (Cutler, Forte and Marshall) it is that much more a wiser choice.

The basis for your argument is our two OL first round picks arent very good, so we dont draft another one doesnt hold up to well. Most of your LT positions in the NFL come in the first round. Angelo drafted them, not good for an argument . Whether Carmi is any good is still to be detemined and Williams is a swing tackle on a good team. The OL is the engine that makes the Offense work. It has to be fixed. The WR is deep in the draft this year. There are 6 OL that are good enough to be drafted in the first round and one of them should drop to us. There are only 2 to 3 WR deserving of the 19th spot. I would say 2 to 3 DEs also. We need to take the best player at that spot in those there spots. I would prefer OL, but the draft will dictate that. If Coples is there we have to take him, I would say Floyd, we got Marshall so that is not so critical but should consider it. It is unfortuante we have so many spots to fill, I fear the best player may be a DT, CB is an area of need so it could be that.

[jason]

Well heres how I see it Jason. Stats can be skewed how you wanna view them. (Ask politicians). For example where you see a trend of lackluster play by the Oline over the course of years you illustrate, I see that the difference between 2010 and '11 is that the line improved. And that Omiyale wasn't listed for last years lineup.

 

My point is that of the Bears' last two 1st round picks, two were OLmen. And more specifically they were both LTs. And of the two of them, neither played more than Webb did last year at the position. Am I suggesting that Webb (a seventh rounder?) is better than both Williams and Carimi at their "natural" positions? Nope. I'm just saying that picking an OLman with the 1st pick does not guarantee success. Whereas using the 1st round pick on a skill player is a better investment. And with the other key players already in place (Cutler, Forte and Marshall) it is that much more a wiser choice.

 

Understood, but there are just as many 1st round WR busts as OL. Actually, I'd bet there are more.

 

The fact that neither Williams nor Carimi were slotted ahead of Webb when the season began is an indictment of Tice as a talent evaluator more than anything. Once the injuries happened all bets were off. Tice has a history of categorizing his OLinemen based on unique characteristics, and I think it hinders his creativity at times. In other words, as soon as he says "Webb is a LT" or "Carimi is a RT," that's where he sees them, and only where he sees them. He'll move them around if injuries force his hand, but he'd rather put them where he sees them.

 

As for the year-by-year breakdown, it's pretty hard to argue that those stats lie. Those are cumulative offensive stats for the entire year. And there is only one year the Bears aren't in the bottom half of the league: the year they had a stable OL with highly drafted talent.