bear trap Posted April 28, 2012 Report Share Posted April 28, 2012 I have to say I like emery just a hair more than ja... at least he addressed our wr core I loved the jeffery pick but that is about it lol... we will see one thing I do have to ask why the hell does it seem like only us fans and commentators and analysts and pretty much everyone else other than the gm and coaches see that our o line sucks??? I mean its EVERY YEAR it would be different if it was just every so often but cmon man the line sucks it don't matter that we got rid of martz and his seven step drops because half the time culter was either knocked on his ass or running for his life by his secord or third... our line sucks and it has to do with our coaches and evaluators yet every year we ignore it or drat one guy who ends up playing in a complete different spot he was drafted to play... I mean really are our coaches really that incompetent at evals that it took them two years to see frank o sucked balls??? I knew it in about two seconds after the first snap... sometimes you just have to cut ties because no matter what if you have a turd and try to polish it in the end all you have is a polished turd and nothing changes the fact that it still looks like sh#t... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear trap Posted April 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2012 I have to say I like emery just a hair more than ja... at least he addressed our wr core I loved the jeffery pick but that is about it lol... we will see one thing I do have to ask why the hell does it seem like only us fans and commentators and analysts and pretty much everyone else other than the gm and coaches see that our o line sucks??? I mean its EVERY YEAR it would be different if it was just every so often but cmon man the line sucks it don't matter that we got rid of martz and his seven step drops because half the time culter was either knocked on his ass or running for his life by his secord or third... our line sucks and it has to do with our coaches and evaluators yet every year we ignore it or drat one guy who ends up playing in a complete different spot he was drafted to play... I mean really are our coaches really that incompetent at evals that it took them two years to see frank o sucked balls??? I knew it in about two seconds after the first snap... sometimes you just have to cut ties because no matter what if you have a turd and try to polish it in the end all you have is a polished turd and nothing changes the fact that it still looks like sh#t... And that is why the good teams STAY good look at the steelers for example... they knew just like us that their line sucked last year so the go and draft decastro and adams... I personally wanted decastro because I'm sooo sick of inside blitzers blowing right through the middle and we label it communication problems... and in the end it didn't take the steelers numerous years to notice they needed to address the o line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted April 28, 2012 Report Share Posted April 28, 2012 when the line was healthy they gave up 5 sacks total in 5 games. Cutler was on pace to be sacked 36 times, same amount as Aaron Rodgers whose team went 15-1...if it stays healthy its not as bad as it looks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBearSox Posted April 28, 2012 Report Share Posted April 28, 2012 Cutler saved himself from plenty of sacks...5 sacks in 5 games is not the way to look at it. They gelled a little bit but plenty of our plays were broken up before they even started because of the oline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear trap Posted April 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2012 when the line was healthy they gave up 5 sacks total in 5 games. Cutler was on pace to be sacked 36 times, same amount as Aaron Rodgers whose team went 15-1...if it stays healthy its not as bad as it looks It started to look better because martz pulled his head out of his butt and started running the ball a whole lot more I think that it really masked how bad it was at least pass protecting wise... and cutler also did the line favors with his feet let's face it he would have been sacked a lot more in those five games if he wasn't as mobile as he is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GakMan23 Posted April 28, 2012 Report Share Posted April 28, 2012 The only reason Cutler wasn't destroyed sooner was that they were in max protection most of the time. The oline has not been addressed at all this offseason and I feel it is going to bite them at some point this season. Possibly when Webb has his 2 false start of the game or gives up his 3rd sack... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted April 28, 2012 Report Share Posted April 28, 2012 Well whatever they did in those 5 games keep doing it, it yielded 5 sacks and 5 dominating wins....why stray away from it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 I have to say I like emery just a hair more than ja... at least he addressed our wr core I loved the jeffery pick but that is about it lol... we will see one thing I do have to ask why the hell does it seem like only us fans and commentators and analysts and pretty much everyone else other than the gm and coaches see that our o line sucks??? I mean its EVERY YEAR it would be different if it was just every so often but cmon man the line sucks it don't matter that we got rid of martz and his seven step drops because half the time culter was either knocked on his ass or running for his life by his secord or third... our line sucks and it has to do with our coaches and evaluators yet every year we ignore it or drat one guy who ends up playing in a complete different spot he was drafted to play... I mean really are our coaches really that incompetent at evals that it took them two years to see frank o sucked balls??? I knew it in about two seconds after the first snap... sometimes you just have to cut ties because no matter what if you have a turd and try to polish it in the end all you have is a polished turd and nothing changes the fact that it still looks like sh#t... For the record, bear trap is not my alternate login (not that I have one). He just happens to be a very informed Bears fan who realizes the OL sucks and got ignored. Again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 when the line was healthy they gave up 5 sacks total in 5 games. Cutler was on pace to be sacked 36 times, same amount as Aaron Rodgers whose team went 15-1...if it stays healthy its not as bad as it looks That's far too simplistic to address how bad the OL was last year. Please go back several pages in the forum history and look at some of the extensive data, research, and links provided that shows the Bears OL was unequivocally one of the worst couple in the NFL last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 That's far too simplistic to address how bad the OL was last year. Please go back several pages in the forum history and look at some of the extensive data, research, and links provided that shows the Bears OL was unequivocally one of the worst couple in the NFL last year. I care what they did last year...when they were healthy. For that 5 game winning streak (1/3rd of the season so its not that small a sample size) they were healthy and they looked really really good, and they didnt even have Carimi for that stretch. Then Chris Williams got hurt, so thats 2 1st round picks out and the line proceeded to suck again. To add to that, Cutler got injured the week after CW got injured. sooo you're missing your 2 1st round picks AND you have zero passing game so teams can put more guys in the box so theres gonna be more rushers coming in on an already depleted line....any teams lines gonna look terrible at that point! Next year they're getting Carimi and CW back, I dont see why they cant duplicate the success of that 5 game winning streak and be even better with the new system, the added weapons, and the addition of Carimi who wasnt there for the 5 game win streak......Why is that so hard to believe? If injuries happen again they added a veteran back up in Rachal and a rookie who scouts say could be a starting LT in the NFL James Brown..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 And that is why the good teams STAY good look at the steelers for example... they knew just like us that their line sucked last year so the go and draft decastro and adams... I personally wanted decastro because I'm sooo sick of inside blitzers blowing right through the middle and we label it communication problems... and in the end it didn't take the steelers numerous years to notice they needed to address the o line... The Steelers have had two bad years with their Oline and last year got their QB beat up worse than anything Cutler saw. Saying this is why they are always a good team and we should be like them is a little bit off IMO. They shouldn't have let their line get that bad and all my friends who are Steelers fans have said as much. If part of their problem were injuries to Olinemen then it was equally as much a part of our issues. Lack of depth killed both teams Olines last season. Did they address it this year? Yes. We (somewhat to my dismay) chose to address our WR and DE deficiencies this year. Neither are serious concerns for the Steelers. Bottom line is we had many more issues to fix than they did. I think the Steelers are a better example of drafting ability when it comes to their defense. Their D is always a strength and it seems they always have the next young LB or lineman ready to step in whenever a key players leaves in FA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 I care what they did last year...when they were healthy. For that 5 game winning streak (1/3rd of the season so its not that small a sample size) they were healthy and they looked really really good, and they didnt even have Carimi for that stretch. Then Chris Williams got hurt, so thats 2 1st round picks out and the line proceeded to suck again. To add to that, Cutler got injured the week after CW got injured. sooo you're missing your 2 1st round picks AND you have zero passing game so teams can put more guys in the box so theres gonna be more rushers coming in on an already depleted line....any teams lines gonna look terrible at that point! Next year they're getting Carimi and CW back, I dont see why they cant duplicate the success of that 5 game winning streak and be even better with the new system, the added weapons, and the addition of Carimi who wasnt there for the 5 game win streak......Why is that so hard to believe? If injuries happen again they added a veteran back up in Rachal and a rookie who scouts say could be a starting LT in the NFL James Brown..... It's hard to belive because you're only choosing the best games from a good run. That's a small sample size, and neither people nor data work like that. If you only care about last year, and you're only considering last year, then you're still missing the fact they were one of the worst OLs in the NFL last year according to every impartial metric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 It's hard to belive because you're only choosing the best games from a good run. That's a small sample size, and neither people nor data work like that. If you only care about last year, and you're only considering last year, then you're still missing the fact they were one of the worst OLs in the NFL last year according to every impartial metric. The line went back to bein garbage after Chris Williams and the passing game (jay cutler) went down. As I stated before if youre gonna run Caleb Hanie out there teams are gonna stack the box every down to defend against the run, and when they dont run youre gonna have added pass rushers in said box and no matter how good or bad your line is youre gonna get beat often in that situation.... Show me a line that did well after losing 2 key OL and their starting QB(with no capable backup)....then I'll start to worry about the line. In the ten games Cutler played he was on pace to be sacked 36 times in 16 games...know who got sacked 36 times in 15 games??? Aaron Rodgers...and his team did pretty good now didnt they... There were 10 qbs last year that got sacked the same amount or more last year and the line didnt even start to click until 4 or 5 games into the season. is 10 games still too small a sample size for you?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonej Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 The Steelers have had two bad years with their Oline and last year got their QB beat up worse than anything Cutler saw. Saying this is why they are always a good team and we should be like them is a little bit off IMO. They shouldn't have let their line get that bad and all my friends who are Steelers fans have said as much. If part of their problem were injuries to Olinemen then it was equally as much a part of our issues. Lack of depth killed both teams Olines last season. Did they address it this year? Yes. We (somewhat to my dismay) chose to address our WR and DE deficiencies this year. Neither are serious concerns for the Steelers. Bottom line is we had many more issues to fix than they did. I think the Steelers are a better example of drafting ability when it comes to their defense. Their D is always a strength and it seems they always have the next young LB or lineman ready to step in whenever a key players leaves in FA. 2 years ago the Steelers were in the SB so their line was good enough to get them in there. They played last year without Colon so automatically with his healthy return they would be improved. Add to t6hat the 2 draft picks and now you have a young starter at OG and a young OT for depth.Last year they brought Starks in off the street after TC. Like QBs in Martz's system Big Ben tends to hold on to the ball a little longer going for the big play and they will also be in the same situation as us with a new OC.If it was just their O-line the OC wouldn't be in Indy now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 The line went back to bein garbage after Chris Williams and the passing game (jay cutler) went down. As I stated before if youre gonna run Caleb Hanie out there teams are gonna stack the box every down to defend against the run, and when they dont run youre gonna have added pass rushers in said box and no matter how good or bad your line is youre gonna get beat often in that situation.... Show me a line that did well after losing 2 key OL and their starting QB(with no capable backup)....then I'll start to worry about the line. In the ten games Cutler played he was on pace to be sacked 36 times in 16 games...know who got sacked 36 times in 15 games??? Aaron Rodgers...and his team did pretty good now didnt they... There were 10 qbs last year that got sacked the same amount or more last year and the line didnt even start to click until 4 or 5 games into the season. is 10 games still too small a sample size for you?? 10 games is better, but now you're mixing apples and oranges by comparing the Bears' offense to the Packers' offense. You try the comparison to say, "Hey, if the Packers can be so good, then it can't be the OL!" The problem is, the Packers had a better QB and better WR corp last year...not to mention the fact that you're only considering the passing aspect of OL play. You're not even factoring in the running game, where the Bears gained decent yards despite having the 3rd most negative rushes. 5th worst in sacks 5th worst in hits 3rd worst in negative rushes Only two other teams had such a horrible combination of the three factors: St. Louis and Seattle. I'm not saying the injuries didn't play a part. They certainly did. What I'm saying is, comparing them to the Packers doesn't work, and trying to make heads or tails out of last year is difficult if you don't look at the whole picture. They were bad just about the entire year. When the Bears were on a winning streak they were certainly playing better, but they weren't playing good. OL remains the major question mark going into this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Im gonna stop trying to argue and just go along with what the bears professional staff believe...BTW Im Mike Tice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chitownhustla Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 when the line was healthy they gave up 5 sacks total in 5 games. Cutler was on pace to be sacked 36 times, same amount as Aaron Rodgers whose team went 15-1...if it stays healthy its not as bad as it looks Did you watch those games????? Cutler still ran for his life. Cutler was always on the run each game. Remember the Saints game??? I didnt think Cutler would make it out of that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Im gonna stop trying to argue and just go along with what the bears professional staff believe...BTW Im Mike Tice Fine with me, because no matter how many Tice nut-huggers there are in the media, he didn't do very much with the OL last year, and it pretty much sucked except one small stretch of games. It comes as no surprise the OL sucked for multiple years before that as well. I'd have more faith in the professional staff if the Bears had the Patriots track record of success. But they don't. And Cutler has been killed the entire time he's been in Chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 2 years ago the Steelers were in the SB so their line was good enough to get them in there. They played last year without Colon so automatically with his healthy return they would be improved. Add to t6hat the 2 draft picks and now you have a young starter at OG and a young OT for depth.Last year they brought Starks in off the street after TC. Like QBs in Martz's system Big Ben tends to hold on to the ball a little longer going for the big play and they will also be in the same situation as us with a new OC.If it was just their O-line the OC wouldn't be in Indy now. Arizona's Oline was good enough to get them to that Superbowl too and they were horrible. Even so they were within 2min of winning that game. That goes back to Jason's argument...fix the Oline and the rest will take care of itself. Yet teams have made it to the Superbowl with some question marks on their line. Pittsburgh made it to the playoffs with a ton of problems on their line last year. Even this past season the Giants Oline wasn't that good. How many sacks did Eli take last year? 28. How many hits? 72 I don't know where Cutler was at in sacks and hits before he went down but the 5 in 5 games (or whatever it was) is a valid trend. The Giants Oline led a whopping 3.5 yards-per-rush. The facts show it is possible to win it all without an elite, or top 10 Oline. Can you get deep into the playoffs year after year without one or will your QB turn to dust? That is a different proposition and Cutler and Big Ben answered that question...dust. Remember, we were in the NFC championship game not too long ago with a weaker Oline than the one we fielded last season. My point is merely that Pittsburgh hasn't always had a great Oline and that isn't necessarily the model for what we should do. Did they address that major weakness..absolutely. How many other major weaknesses did they have to address relative to our roster? DE? DT? LB? S? WR? I'd have gladly swapped our Hback for a good Oline prospect but I don't know if at that point the talent level warranted it (I don't really look at prospects beyond the first 2 or 3 rounds so I literally don't know). This offseason we have clearly added talent at the skill positions. If we can get some improvement from our Oline, just enough to be average we could have a very good offense. That remains a big IF but history says it can happen now that we have solid talent at QB, WR, and RB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyBear Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Jason you did not watch a game last year. The line played well and Webb did better then ok holding his own , when C Williams went down it was ugly. Webb Turned into a turnstile. Louis was doing awesome at guard but when moved to tackle he was lost as well. The line was in major flux for most of the year due to injury and Omiyale. Its definitive your observations of line play are skewed. Comparing Green bay to the Bears was only in sacks allowed. How is that apples and oranges? It was only an example. The Bears O line had 2 seasons last year, One is where they were jelling and the other where they fell apart/ Lack of depth and cohesion was the problem. Not the line that starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Jason you did not watch a game last year. The line played well and Webb did better then ok holding his own , when C Williams went down it was ugly. Webb Turned into a turnstile. Louis was doing awesome at guard but when moved to tackle he was lost as well. The line was in major flux for most of the year due to injury and Omiyale. Its definitive your observations of line play are skewed. Comparing Green bay to the Bears was only in sacks allowed. How is that apples and oranges? It was only an example. The Bears O line had 2 seasons last year, One is where they were jelling and the other where they fell apart/ Lack of depth and cohesion was the problem. Not the line that starts. Wrong. I watched all the games last year, and most of the games more than one time. Webb sucked. He had a decent stretch here and there, but he was nowhere near consistent or as good as you try to pretend he was. It's revisionist history. We do this crap every year. We talk about how bad players are on a game-by-game basis, then when the next season starts there are people who forget, and act as if what happened didn't. The reason the Chicago vs. GB example is apples and oranges are various. First and foremost, they have Aaron Rogers, a better QB. Second, they have a better offensive system that better utilizes quick routes (been that way for years and years). Third, they have more capable WRs. The combination of the above makes their situation completely different. The way the sacks stat was used was an example of why the sacks weren't that bad because after all, look how good the Packers offense was! That's obviously a stupid argument, therefore, applese/oranges. AZ54 hit on something though...which is what I've alluded to above...a stud OL isn't necessary for offensive success. We have seen it happen before. But you have to have a bunch of other pieces perfectly in place to overcome the OL's shortcomings. Before the Bears didn't have that. This year they do. But keep in mind, the QB is still the key. If he goes down, the offense fails. And we've yet to really see the OL protect Cutler consistently. There are countless times from last year where he ran for his life and got rid of the ball because of pressure, but I have yet to see a comprehensive stat for that. Plain and simple: if the offense fails, it's the OL's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Jason you did not watch a game last year. The line played well and Webb did better then ok holding his own , when C Williams went down it was ugly. Webb Turned into a turnstile. Louis was doing awesome at guard but when moved to tackle he was lost as well. The line was in major flux for most of the year due to injury and Omiyale. Its definitive your observations of line play are skewed. Comparing Green bay to the Bears was only in sacks allowed. How is that apples and oranges? It was only an example. The Bears O line had 2 seasons last year, One is where they were jelling and the other where they fell apart/ Lack of depth and cohesion was the problem. Not the line that starts. You cant piece meal the season, those 5 games the line was ok , not good, not great, and the rest of the time below average. In the last two seasons Webb has not made any progress, look at his stats.Penalties, sacks, not good. C. Williams was average, but not saying much for a first round LT, Louis wasnt good as a RT, we can have improvement just by staying healthy, but there is no guarantee this line will turn in to a good unit, and thats where the problem comes, we dont have any options if it doenst improve. We added a couple of pieces and I think the middle of the line will be ok, its the OTs where the problem will lie. If Carmini doesnt stay heathly, and I am hoping he does, it throws everything into a difficult state. I assume they go with Webb, and C. Williams becomes our swing tackle, there both question marks and we can only hope for the best. I dont want them to be bad, but you cant ignore the tape and propects of great improvement. Teams can go to the SB with a bad line, but you have to have so many things fall rigjht for you, it is hard to trust that to happen. We have add more playmakers but they still have to translate that on to the field and we can all have hope it jells properly. I am not a soothsayer, just trying to be realistic with our expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Wrong. I watched all the games last year, and most of the games more than one time. Webb sucked. He had a decent stretch here and there, but he was nowhere near consistent or as good as you try to pretend he was. It's revisionist history. We do this crap every year. We talk about how bad players are on a game-by-game basis, then when the next season starts there are people who forget, and act as if what happened didn't. The reason the Chicago vs. GB example is apples and oranges are various. First and foremost, they have Aaron Rogers, a better QB. Second, they have a better offensive system that better utilizes quick routes (been that way for years and years). Third, they have more capable WRs. The combination of the above makes their situation completely different. The way the sacks stat was used was an example of why the sacks weren't that bad because after all, look how good the Packers offense was! That's obviously a stupid argument, therefore, applese/oranges. AZ54 hit on something though...which is what I've alluded to above...a stud OL isn't necessary for offensive success. We have seen it happen before. But you have to have a bunch of other pieces perfectly in place to overcome the OL's shortcomings. Before the Bears didn't have that. This year they do. But keep in mind, the QB is still the key. If he goes down, the offense fails. And we've yet to really see the OL protect Cutler consistently. There are countless times from last year where he ran for his life and got rid of the ball because of pressure, but I have yet to see a comprehensive stat for that. Plain and simple: if the offense fails, it's the OL's fault. I look at it the same way you do, and find the fact we have very little options if it falls apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkerBear7 Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 And that is why the good teams STAY good look at the steelers for example... they knew just like us that their line sucked last year so the go and draft decastro and adams... I personally wanted decastro because I'm sooo sick of inside blitzers blowing right through the middle and we label it communication problems... and in the end it didn't take the steelers numerous years to notice they needed to address the o line... Agreed, there is no doubt that the last two GM's have neglected the OL for years! So far in that regard, Emery is not off to a good start. I admittedley was stunned with the 1st round pick and clealry they did not draft best player / matching need - available. If so how could they not have selected Decastro? I posted months ago as well on why I thought the Bears should draft two OL in the first three rounds. How great would it have been if Emery Drafted Decastro at 19, traded up for WR Jeffries in the 2nd and traded back into the 2nd round with the Bengels for Center Perter Konz. LT Williams (Webb), LG - Decastro - C Konz - RG Garza (Rachal etc competition) - RT Carimi This would have been an above average unit and a foundation of talented youth to build upon in 2013. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Agreed, there is no doubt that the last two GM's have neglected the OL for years! So far in that regard, Emery is not off to a good start. I admittedley was stunned with the 1st round pick and clealry they did not draft best player / matching need - available. If so how could they not have selected Decastro? I posted months ago as well on why I thought the Bears should draft two OL in the first three rounds. How great would it have been if Emery Drafted Decastro at 19, traded up for WR Jeffries in the 2nd and traded back into the 2nd round with the Bengels for Center Perter Konz. LT Williams (Webb), LG - Decastro - C Konz - RG Garza (Rachal etc competition) - RT Carimi This would have been an above average unit and a foundation of talented youth to build upon in 2013. ParkerBear for GM! If that had happened I would have not posted for weeks afterwards because I would have been in the ICU because of a heart attack. And Cutler would have been in a room down the hall because of priaprism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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