jason Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'm perplexed. It seems like you are supporting Wessons' assertion that bigger recievers do indeed have an advantage. I really don't want to join the debate over who or what is better, because I think great receivers occur in all shapes and sizes. The original post was weather Jeffery is better and more suited to start over Hester.(which I find unfounded due to Jeffereys' lack of EVER playing against NFL DB's) Don't be perplexed. I do not lack reading comprehension skills. I was simply posting something I read that pertains to the discussion. Another person's opinion, whether I agree with it or not. I actually believe what you believe about "all shapes and sizes," which is why the OMG HE'S TALLER SO HE'S BETTER WE CAN THROW JUMP BALLS ALL GAME! stuff is so nonsensical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Don't be perplexed. I do not lack reading comprehension skills. I was simply posting something I read that pertains to the discussion. Another person's opinion, whether I agree with it or not. I actually believe what you believe about "all shapes and sizes," which is why the OMG HE'S TALLER SO HE'S BETTER WE CAN THROW JUMP BALLS ALL GAME! stuff is so nonsensical. I'm no longer perplexed. You and I are usually on the same page, so the universe is in balance again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesson44 Posted July 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 I'm no longer perplexed. You and I are usually on the same page, so the universe is in balance again. Ask yourself why the Bears had R.Williams as the starting WR over Knox last year. Was it because he was faster....no, was it because he could catch better and ran better routes....no, it was because of the height difference betwen the two, and the Bears thought to take advantage of this. This year we will do the same, just with better players IMHO with Marshall & Jeffrey. Now my whole point is that size(height & weight) does have an advantage in the NFL. Case in point show me and Oline man that is 5'11 190lbs starting in the NFL or show me a 6'5 220lb CB starting.But I can show you a 6'5 220 WR and a QB and a 6'7 320lb OT.Certain positions height and weight are an advantage while other positions they are not. So to disagree is directly contradicting just what the NFL does every year when they pick the bigger (both height & weight) WR, QB,Lineman (both on offense and defense) in the draft. Now don't get me wrong they will indeed pick smaller players that are really good at certain positions but they tend to pick players to create mismatches or to have the best player at that position no matter how big or small, but they will go with the taller or bigger one 75% of the time. Denver back in the day had multiple 1,000 yard rushers behind a smaller line...it was how they blocked in that zone scheme that they were great at..not just power blocking. Now you (Jason) All things being equal, yes, a taller WR has an advantage. But all things aren't equal. Give me a WR corp full of Wes Welkers and I'll give you an unstoppable offense like the 91 Houston Oilers ok "all things being equal" give me a team of Deion Sanders, Champ Bailey and Darrell Reeves type of players and we will shut your 5'9 smrufs down-out end of game. Now give me a team full of Marshall, Moss, C.Johnson type WR's and your defense better call for help!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Ask yourself why the Bears had R.Williams as the starting WR over Knox last year. Was it because he was faster....no, was it because he could catch better and ran better routes....no, it was because of the height difference betwen the two, and the Bears thought to take advantage of this. This year we will do the same, just with better players IMHO with Marshall & Jeffrey. Now my whole point is that size(height & weight) does have an advantage in the NFL. Case in point show me and Oline man that is 5'11 190lbs starting in the NFL or show me a 6'5 220lb CB starting.But I can show you a 6'5 220 WR and a QB and a 6'7 320lb OT.Certain positions height and weight are an advantage while other positions they are not. So to disagree is directly contradicting just what the NFL does every year when they pick the bigger (both height & weight) WR, QB,Lineman (both on offense and defense) in the draft. Now don't get me wrong they will indeed pick smaller players that are really good at certain positions but they tend to pick players to create mismatches or to have the best player at that position no matter how big or small, but they will go with the taller or bigger one 75% of the time. Denver back in the day had multiple 1,000 yard rushers behind a smaller line...it was how they blocked in that zone scheme that they were great at..not just power blocking. Now you (Jason) All things being equal, yes, a taller WR has an advantage. But all things aren't equal. Give me a WR corp full of Wes Welkers and I'll give you an unstoppable offense like the 91 Houston Oilers ok "all things being equal" give me a team of Deion Sanders, Champ Bailey and Darrell Reeves type of players and we will shut your 5'9 smrufs down-out end of game. Now give me a team full of Marshall, Moss, C.Johnson type WR's and your defense better call for help!!! Sigh. You still don't grasp "all things being equal." You prove it when you try to use the same discussion point in your favor, and especially in the sentence I bolded above. I'll try one last time, and then I quit this thread forever. 1. If all things were equal, all players would have the same abilities. EVERY ability. 2. Therefore, if you were to go in and change a SINGLE attribute of a SINGLE player, and that attribute happened to be height, then, yes, that ONE guy would have an advantage. 3. But since all things ARE NOT equal, and all these guys do not come off an assembly line, height or weight does not, by itself, provide a player the advantage necessary to be superior. Yes, if you have to choose between two players who are nearly identical (see point #1), then you may as well go with the taller player. 4. This is why a player like Welker, who has superior speed, quickness, route running, hands, vision, etc. is better than someone who is taller but not as polished in the attributes mentioned. Yes, if you have to choose between Welker and Megatron, who also has superior speed, quickness, route running, hands, vision, strength, etc., you go with Megatron. At the same time, you always choose Welker over 6'5" David Nelson. Because all things aren't equal. 5. Not so surprisingly, the NFL guys do not simply go for the biggest or heaviest player. You could refer to my "All Wesson"-lineup posted several replies ago for proof. They are drafting guys who are tall and weigh a lot, but they are drafting them AHEAD of the guys who are the tallest and the heaviest. Why? Because all things aren't equal, and the added height or weight does not make up for the disadvantage those players have in other attributes. Guess who got drafted first out of 6'1" 207lbs Justin Blackmon and 6'3" 220lbs Michael Floyd?! Say it with me, all things are not equal, so the height/weight differential was not enough to make up for the other areas in which Michael Floyd was inferior to Justin Blackmon. Summary: If two guys have idential attributes in EVERY.SINGLE.WAY, then I agree with you. Grab the taller guy. But, that's not reality, and for the last time, all things aren't equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesson44 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Sigh. You still don't grasp "all things being equal." You prove it when you try to use the same discussion point in your favor, and especially in the sentence I bolded above. I'll try one last time, and then I quit this thread forever. You quit..good 1. If all things were equal, all players would have the same abilities. EVERY ability. True I agree but You started this "all thing being equal" remember to get you point across 2. Therefore, if you were to go in and change a SINGLE attribute of a SINGLE player, and that attribute happened to be height, then, yes, that ONE guy would have an advantage. Yes!!! You agree with me that height is an advantage!!!!! 3. But since all things ARE NOT equal, and all these guys do not come off an assembly line, height or weight does not, by itself, provide a player the advantage necessary to be superior. Yes, if you have to choose between two players who are nearly identical (see point #1), then you may as well go with the taller player. Yes!!! You agree with me that height is an advantage!!!!! I agree height and weight not by themselves is an advantage but if you had to choose why are YOU choosing the the taller player...answer because of the height advantage. 4. This is why a player like Welker, who has superior speed, quickness, route running, hands, vision, etc. is better than someone who is taller but not as polished in the attributes mentioned. Yes, if you have to choose between Welker and Megatron, who also has superior speed, quickness, route running, hands, vision, strength, etc., you go with Megatron. At the same time, you always choose Welker over 6'5" David Nelson. Because all things aren't equal. Yes!!! You agree with me that height is an advantage, you go with Megatron over Welker !!!!! I would rather take Steve Smith over David nelson, but I see the point there. 5. Not so surprisingly, the NFL guys do not simply go for the biggest or heaviest player. You could refer to my "All Wesson"-lineup posted several replies ago for proof. They are drafting guys who are tall and weigh a lot, but they are drafting them AHEAD of the guys who are the tallest and the heaviest. Why? Because all things aren't equal, and the added height or weight does not make up for the disadvantage those players have in other attributes. Guess who got drafted first out of 6'1" 207lbs Justin Blackmon and 6'3" 220lbs Michael Floyd?! Say it with me, all things are not equal, so the height/weight differential was not enough to make up for the other areas in which Michael Floyd was inferior to Justin Blackmon. Blackmon is the better WR in this case, but you keep stating as I said many times before about this all things being equal and not equal...the whole point is that height and or weight does have an advantage. You have admitted this like four times in this post. Now with your "All Wesson Team" you listed linemen at 1300 -1400lbs...really?????Even so if they could block your 320 dline could not get around them. As for the WR at 6-11 to 7'0 what DB do you know can stop that Jennings at 5'9...ha,ha,ha. Oh and Jones at QB..he can throw the ball far for real...... since you dont know it.RB ok the fridge played it and a few other teams have use this lineman at a RB/FB as well. i would like to see how D.J.Moore tries to tackle the 300 pound guyout of the backfield. Yes i see your point about Blackmon, but guess who didnt get drafted at all....WES WELKER...so that means he got passed over 7 times by 32 teams because he was too small/short whatever...... in fact in the 2004 draft his team mate Carlos Francis 5'10 185 got drafted in the 4th RD by Oakland. Another fact in the 2004 draft is that 7 WR's were drafted in the first round with the shortest being Lee Evans at 5'10 Do you want to know who the 6 others were.......???????? Some could play and some couldn't # 3 Larry Fitzgerald at 6'3 #7 Roy Williams at 6'3 #9 Reggie Williams at 6'4 #15 Michael Clayton at 6'3 #29 Michael Jenkins at 6'4 #31 Rashaun Woods at 6'2 Another fact out of the 32 WR's drafted in the 2004 draft 22 of them were 6'1 and above, and (10) 6'0 and below, but you say getting the taller guy is not reality Summary: If two guys have idential attributes in EVERY.SINGLE.WAY, then I agree with you. Grab the taller guy. But, that's not reality, and for the last time, all things aren't equal. Once again you agree with me and you take the taller guy and it is reality...you are just still on your quest to be right when you cant see forest because of the trees! Food for your thoughts If height was not an advantage...why are there no 4'11 QB's in the NFL? If weight was not an advantage why are there no 195lb Linemen in the NFL? Can you show me a 5'10 center that plays in the NBA. Oh one last one....why does Steve Nash never guard Lebron James down low in the paint? Is it because he is too LIGHT(weight) and too short(height) Jason we are done....case closed you lost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'TD' Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Jeffery isn't a taller Hester. Their abilities, measurables, and experience contrast each other. Applying that to the beginning, Jeffery shouldn't be handed a starting spot just because he is taller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesson44 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Jeffery isn't a taller Hester. Their abilities, measurables, and experience contrast each other. Applying that to the beginning, Jeffery shouldn't be handed a starting spot just because he is taller. You are right, but thats not what this was about. Jeffrey is a true WR as Hester was not. The whole point was that height has an advantage in the NFL. Jeffrey can make catches over smaller DB's that our smaller WR cant....like fades, high passes, and jump balls in the red zone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'TD' Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 You are right, but thats not what this was about. Jeffrey is a true WR as Hester was not. The whole point was that height has an advantage in the NFL. Jeffrey can make catches over smaller DB's that our smaller WR cant....like fades, high passes, and jump balls in the red zone. And Hester has the speed and elusiveness that the team lacks with Knox injured. Hester is a true WR in the NFL now, while Jeffery hasn't had experience at this level yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesson44 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 And Hester has the speed and elusiveness that the team lacks with Knox injured. Hester is a true WR in the NFL now, while Jeffery hasn't had experience at this level yet. Yes that's true about Jeffrey being new to the NFL, but Calvin johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson were all new to the NFl too right. So you would have Jeffrey sit on the bench and learn behind Marshall? Or put Hester & Bennett on the otherside at WR? Both Marshall & Jeffrey are a beast at WR and do things Bennett & Hester dont do. Sure Hester has the moves and the speed and Bennett can catch a cold in the desert (120 degrees) but they dont have that match up problem that Marshall and Jeffrey have which gives Cutler more of a chance to make a off target throw look great. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTegYX4Gro4...feature=related Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Yes that's true about Jeffrey being new to the NFL, but Calvin johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson were all new to the NFl too right. So you would have Jeffrey sit on the bench and learn behind Marshall? Or put Hester & Bennett on the otherside at WR? Both Marshall & Jeffrey are a beast at WR and do things Bennett & Hester dont do. Sure Hester has the moves and the speed and Bennett can catch a cold in the desert (120 degrees) but they dont have that match up problem that Marshall and Jeffrey have which gives Cutler more of a chance to make a off target throw look great. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTegYX4Gro4...feature=related I would make sure Jeffrey learns how to be in the right spot at the right time but he'll need some playing to help him get there. Until he earns it I wouldn't put him out there full time and bench a guy like Hester or Bennett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hochuli 3:16 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 seems to me that everyone disagrees with Wesson and everyone should just agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I given him credit, he is adamant and unwavering in his sight-unseen support of Jeffrey. Since it is the dog days of summer we have nothing else to talk about so we say the same things over and over and over. Maybe Forte's contract talks will heat up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesson44 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I given him credit, he is adamant and unwavering in his sight-unseen support of Jeffrey. Since it is the dog days of summer we have nothing else to talk about so we say the same things over and over and over. Maybe Forte's contract talks will heat up again. I'm not really adamant and unwavering about Jeffrey being a starter from day one.........but in fact adamant and unwavering about the potential of the offfense this year if the Bears use all the tools they now have.Knox and Williams didn't bring to the table what Marshall and Jeffrey do now. With Williams and Knox you had two one trick ponies....now with Hester you have speed and the moves, with Marshall and Jeffrey you have speed, moves, height and weight to deal with as a DB.Williams & Knox catch the ball and were easy to bring down......not Marshall & Jeffrey....then you have to catch Hester which is not easy to do either. That's why the Packers were so good the past two years...they have multiple weapons at WR so teams cant just double team the best WR and have to play man coverage. can you image having Marshall and Jeffrey on the outside with Hester and Bennett in the slot with Forte out of the backfield in the 4 WR look like the Packers run. Also since Tice has gotten rid of th 7 step drops, Cutler can get the ball out faster and does not have to actually wait for either Marshall or Jeffrey to get open as he did with Williams and Knox...because Jeffrey and Marshall tend to fight for the ball and go get it...as where Knox and Williams have those alligator arms and let the ball come to them.The red zone is going to be a beast this year for the Bears with Bush taking the role that Barber had last year. Now you will see Marshall and Jeffrey on the outside a WR both at 6'4 and Davis and Spaeth at TE both 6'7. this is going to be a nightmare for other teams.I think the Bears will average 23.3 points per game this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Maybe I misread the title of the thread: 4 Reasons Why Alshon Jeffery Must Start, Over Devin Hester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selection7 Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 You are right, but thats not what this was about. Jeffrey is a true WR as Hester was not. The whole point was that height has an advantage in the NFL. You know what's also a big advantage in the NFL? Being good. If you think he's all that and a bag of chips, great. You can't prove it, we can't disprove it...we all hope it true. The height thing just distracts from from the overall question of how good is he (and yes, height is one factor). I like the idea, though, that having height on both sides of the ball is worth more than the sum of its parts, but I wouldn't get carried away. The annals of bad coaching are filled with decisions to start guys based on measureables over much better players because the coach got too excited to bother to ask "but can he play?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesson44 Posted July 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 You know what's also a big advantage in the NFL? Being good. If you think he's all that and a bag of chips, great. You can't prove it, we can't disprove it...we all hope it true. The height thing just distracts from from the overall question of how good is he (and yes, height is one factor). I like the idea, though, that having height on both sides of the ball is worth more than the sum of its parts, but I wouldn't get carried away. The annals of bad coaching are filled with decisions to start guys based on measureables over much better players because the coach got too excited to bother to ask "but can he play?" You know I agree with you about starting the best player and i think we will do that with Hester being the no@ WR brcause he knows the system better. Now we will see Jeffrey in the red zone and in certain formations ...like the 4 WR set. Hopefully he works his wat to the no @ position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'TD' Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 You know I agree with you about starting the best player and i think we will do that with Hester being the no@ WR brcause he knows the system better. Now we will see Jeffrey in the red zone and in certain formations ...like the 4 WR set. Hopefully he works his wat to the no @ position. Jeffery may even end up starting. I've heard an interview after he was drafted where Emery hinted at that. I just really have a problem with that sites credibility and the reasoning behind the article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesson44 Posted July 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Jeffery may even end up starting. I've heard an interview after he was drafted where Emery hinted at that. I just really have a problem with that sites credibility and the reasoning behind the article. Well lets just hope he earns that starting position by what he does in camp in a few weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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