Who should Jay have yelled at?

[madlithuanian]

Maybe the real question isn't that Jay yelled...but who should he have yelled at?

 

Webb is a talentless hack.

 

Shouldn't Tice have 1. known that going in 2. if he didn't see it going in, shouldn't he have adjusted for it?

 

I get yelling at Webb. As I've mentioned in other posts, the guy seems to check out mentally. H'es like the kid playing soccer picking at the lawn instead of paying attention to the game. And for some mental lapses, he does deserve to get get called out. But he's such a Baby Huey that isn't that really Tice's failure? Between the horrific game planning (no 1st down runs, no short passes, no screens, no helping Webb) and no adjustments...Tice utterly failed Cutler and the team. I think Tice actually deserves more blame than Webb. Yelling at Webb for sucking is kind of like yelling at Corky form "Life Goes On" for not understanding nuclear physics. Maybe Tice has the same problem... Maybe that pencil got lodged into his brain.

 

And take it up one more notch. Smith is responsible for not doing anything as usual. he just lets the game plan unfold for a given game regardless of what is actually happening. he'll make the adjustment this week, but heaven forbid he actually do something during a game! He is the MF'in head coach. When you see your OC failing miserably...step the F in and demand a change! What the F are you paid for!?

 

I fully expect a turnaround this week. My fear is the following week...

 

In a nutshell, I don't blame Jay for yelling at Webb...But I think Tice and Smith truly deserved more of his ire. Maybe even Emery for not doing anything about the position. But, I don't have enough history on Emery yet to lump him in with the idiot coaches. I'll also give Tice a chance to prove himself. Smith's not going to change no matter what.

[Connorbear]

Maybe the real question isn't that Jay yelled...but who should he have yelled at?

 

Webb is a talentless hack.

 

Shouldn't Tice have 1. known that going in 2. if he didn't see it going in, shouldn't he have adjusted for it?

 

I get yelling at Webb. As I've mentioned in other posts, the guy seems to check out mentally. H'es like the kid playing soccer picking at the lawn instead of paying attention to the game. And for some mental lapses, he does deserve to get get called out. But he's such a Baby Huey that isn't that really Tice's failure? Between the horrific game planning (no 1st down runs, no short passes, no screens, no helping Webb) and no adjustments...Tice utterly failed Cutler and the team. I think Tice actually deserves more blame than Webb. Yelling at Webb for sucking is kind of like yelling at Corky form "Life Goes On" for not understanding nuclear physics. Maybe Tice has the same problem... Maybe that pencil got lodged into his brain.

 

And take it up one more notch. Smith is responsible for not doing anything as usual. he just lets the game plan unfold for a given game regardless of what is actually happening. he'll make the adjustment this week, but heaven forbid he actually do something during a game! He is the MF'in head coach. When you see your OC failing miserably...step the F in and demand a change! What the F are you paid for!?

 

I fully expect a turnaround this week. My fear is the following week...

 

In a nutshell, I don't blame Jay for yelling at Webb...But I think Tice and Smith truly deserved more of his ire. Maybe even Emery for not doing anything about the position. But, I don't have enough history on Emery yet to lump him in with the idiot coaches. I'll also give Tice a chance to prove himself. Smith's not going to change no matter what.

 

Agreed.

 

Peace

 

[Guest TerraTor]

Personally, Id yell at the guy who was sucking, Webb. But on same note, this is Lovie Smith's BS. His constant shit drafts have resulted in what we currently have... a terrible Oline and no young LBs who will take over for the Big Two ProBowlers

[jason]

I know one thing, when Jay yelled at Martz last year (presumably), most of this board had a circle-jerk about it.

 

Well, guess what? Tice stuck by Webb, stuck by Spencer, and called a game that was a lot like a Martz game (i.e. iso on LT).

 

If Jay gets tired of yelling at Webb, then he needs to direct attention to Tice.

[Boston Boxer]

he should have yelled at the front office for, once again, refusing to fix the OLine. They have not made a serious attempt yet to make this line better. By the time they get the offense fixed and build a better line, the defense will be old and washed up so we will need to fix that soon.

['TD']

he should have yelled at the front office for, once again, refusing to fix the OLine. They have not made a serious attempt yet to make this line better. By the time they get the offense fixed and build a better line, the defense will be old and washed up so we will need to fix that soon.

 

He should of yelled at himself, he got himself sacked quite a bit and played just bad. Plus, he was the one that wanted tall WR's in the offseason. He should have worried about protection then.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

He should of yelled at himself, he got himself sacked quite a bit and played just bad. Plus, he was the one that wanted tall WR's in the offseason. He should have worried about protection then.

 

Good answer. I would have added..."also".

[madlithuanian]

Agreed on that as well...he deserves a scolding as well. But only for his play...

 

Good answer. I would have added..."also".

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Maybe the real question isn't that Jay yelled...but who should he have yelled at?

 

Webb is a talentless hack.

 

Shouldn't Tice have 1. known that going in 2. if he didn't see it going in, shouldn't he have adjusted for it?

 

I get yelling at Webb. As I've mentioned in other posts, the guy seems to check out mentally. H'es like the kid playing soccer picking at the lawn instead of paying attention to the game. And for some mental lapses, he does deserve to get get called out. But he's such a Baby Huey that isn't that really Tice's failure? Between the horrific game planning (no 1st down runs, no short passes, no screens, no helping Webb) and no adjustments...Tice utterly failed Cutler and the team. I think Tice actually deserves more blame than Webb. Yelling at Webb for sucking is kind of like yelling at Corky form "Life Goes On" for not understanding nuclear physics. Maybe Tice has the same problem... Maybe that pencil got lodged into his brain.

 

And take it up one more notch. Smith is responsible for not doing anything as usual. he just lets the game plan unfold for a given game regardless of what is actually happening. he'll make the adjustment this week, but heaven forbid he actually do something during a game! He is the MF'in head coach. When you see your OC failing miserably...step the F in and demand a change! What the F are you paid for!?

 

I fully expect a turnaround this week. My fear is the following week...

 

In a nutshell, I don't blame Jay for yelling at Webb...But I think Tice and Smith truly deserved more of his ire. Maybe even Emery for not doing anything about the position. But, I don't have enough history on Emery yet to lump him in with the idiot coaches. I'll also give Tice a chance to prove himself. Smith's not going to change no matter what.

 

Mad, I think it safe to say that you have an axe to grind for Smith. I know many here do. I understand it, don't agree with it, but respect it. I realize that he (Smith) has a timeline this year to work with, I'm good with that.

 

My "bottom line" is that Cutler is paid to do a job and although he was harrassed his fair share the other day, his throws without looking to see if there is even a receiever in the area is inexcusable. I heard not all that long ago in the big scheme of things, Cutler isn't the highest sacked QB. And a few others that are higher rated, have had success. Roethlisberger and Rodgers are two that were mentioned. In fact here's a graph to illustrate my point.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/lead...perc_active.htm

 

To read it the higher sacked QB's are at the bottom of the list, the lesser at the top. You'll see of the 43 listed, Cutler is 23rd ranked. In fact Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Flacco have been sacked more yet managed to accomplish better results in their respective time frames.

 

So, are Smith, Tice, Emery, Virginia or even Martz responsible for Cutler's bad playing? No, not completly. Is Cutler soley responsible for his poor play? No. But he is certainly the most responsible for himself and HIS abilities. So to settle our obvious disagreeement of Cutler vs Smith, I think it safe to say that how goes Cutler this year, so goes Smith.

[Chitownhustla]

 

I think he should have sat the entire O down and yelled at everybody. In this same action he should have taken ownership on some of his mistakes. He could have easily ripped everyone, then said he needs to tighten some things up too. Then regroup everyone and say lets do this together. Then go talk to Tice without anyone seeing it.

 

 

The one thing I really wanted the bears to do was keep running the ball. Forte was doing well before he went down and Bush did well after. That blame goes on Tice. When you can run the ball there is no reason to pass the ball on First down.

[madlithuanian]

(Alaska, I love debating these topics with you!)

 

That I do. I am still giving him this season to make it happen, but so far, I'm concerned. I know you like you some Smith, and I respect that. He does have his good elements for sure. But, there are many that feel the bad elements could prevent us from getting the trophy. But, I digress as I want to give Smith a chance to right the ship this season.

 

Cutler is paid to do his job. Part of that is dealing with pressure that comes with the job. He did a poor job of it last Thursday. I'm not sure there's a soul on here that doesn't feel that way. However, there's more to it than just that. Please keep in mind, as Mark Twain said, there's lies, damn lies, and statistics. Let's take a stab at hurries, knockdowns pressure, etc. I don't have time to do the research, but I venture to say Jay may lead with all of the above. And for years, Rapelesberger and Erin Rodgers had much better targets to throw to when under duress. This is the first game Jay had under such pressure with some weapons. He seemed not to use them wisely. However, as mentioned in other points...how much did his coaches and their scheme do him in? And really what do those stats tell us? That the Mannings, Brees and Brady are winners and don't get sacked often? That Rodgers and Raplesburger get sacked a lot and are still winners? Or that being under less duress is simply better than being under duress regardless? There are better and worse QB's both ahead and behind of Cutler. I'm not really sure what conclusion you can really reach. The easiest is wins and big wins. So far Jay don't have that. Like Eli, until he does...he'll be questioned.

 

Everyone involved in the team is responsible for the loss and how we lost it. (Excluding the defensive players). Jay, the OL, the WR's. the TE's. the RB's, the coaches, the GM, and to a degree the owners. It's a group fail.

 

I'm not sure you understand the point of my posts. I'm irritated with Jay and his poor play. But I make note that he is not being helped and in fact, could be hindered.

 

The question was not who is to blame, but who really is failing Jay? Jay is also failing Jay until he can start winning tougher games under duress...but his players and staff are doing him almost no favors.

 

 

 

Mad, I think it safe to say that you have an axe to grind for Smith. I know many here do. I understand it, don't agree with it, but respect it. I realize that he (Smith) has a timeline this year to work with, I'm good with that.

 

My "bottom line" is that Cutler is paid to do a job and although he was harrassed his fair share the other day, his throws without looking to see if there is even a receiever in the area is inexcusable. I heard not all that long ago in the big scheme of things, Cutler isn't the highest sacked QB. And a few others that are higher rated, have had success. Roethlisberger and Rodgers are two that were mentioned. In fact here's a graph to illustrate my point.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/lead...perc_active.htm

 

To read it the higher sacked QB's are at the bottom of the list, the lesser at the top. You'll see of the 43 listed, Cutler is 23rd ranked. In fact Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Flacco have been sacked more yet managed to accomplish better results in their respective time frames.

 

So, are Smith, Tice, Emery, Virginia or even Martz responsible for Cutler's bad playing? No, not completly. Is Cutler soley responsible for his poor play? No. But he is certainly the most responsible for himself and HIS abilities. So to settle our obvious disagreeement of Cutler vs Smith, I think it safe to say that how goes Cutler this year, so goes Smith.

[Mongo3451]

Jay has no business yelling at any staff member, ever.

 

Jay yelling at offensive team mates is OK.

Lovie yelling at Tice is OK.

Emery having an authoritative yet respectful discussion with Lovie is OK...etc

[bschmaranz]

Who should he have yelled at? Did he have a mirror handy?

[jason]

he should have yelled at the front office for, once again, refusing to fix the OLine. They have not made a serious attempt yet to make this line better. By the time they get the offense fixed and build a better line, the defense will be old and washed up so we will need to fix that soon.

 

This is the correct answer. But since the front office is not on the field, the brunt of the abuse is that which the front office refuses to fix. Watch this offseason when the Bears draft a DT in the first and a LB in the second.

[jason]

Mad, I think it safe to say that you have an axe to grind for Smith. I know many here do. I understand it, don't agree with it, but respect it. I realize that he (Smith) has a timeline this year to work with, I'm good with that.

 

My "bottom line" is that Cutler is paid to do a job and although he was harrassed his fair share the other day, his throws without looking to see if there is even a receiever in the area is inexcusable. I heard not all that long ago in the big scheme of things, Cutler isn't the highest sacked QB. And a few others that are higher rated, have had success. Roethlisberger and Rodgers are two that were mentioned. In fact here's a graph to illustrate my point.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/lead...perc_active.htm

 

To read it the higher sacked QB's are at the bottom of the list, the lesser at the top. You'll see of the 43 listed, Cutler is 23rd ranked. In fact Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Flacco have been sacked more yet managed to accomplish better results in their respective time frames.

 

So, are Smith, Tice, Emery, Virginia or even Martz responsible for Cutler's bad playing? No, not completly. Is Cutler soley responsible for his poor play? No. But he is certainly the most responsible for himself and HIS abilities. So to settle our obvious disagreeement of Cutler vs Smith, I think it safe to say that how goes Cutler this year, so goes Smith.

 

Alaska, please go back to the boards over the past two or three years when this issue has been discussed ad nauseum. Sacks are not nearly complete enough of a statistic to adequately describe or demonstrate why the OL has failed. It's but one measure in a collection. Now, if you can find sacks, pressures, hits, false starts, offensive holds (which would have been pressures and/or sacks), then you would have a much greater picture and truer representation of why the OL sucks.

 

The other guys may have gotten sacked more, but it would take all of the aforementioned analysis - not to mention the consistency issue (i.e. the Bears OL taking turns screwing up as opposed to the Packers screwing up on one or two plays) to really see that they've not been under the gun nearly as much as Cutler.

 

[Chitownhustla]

Alaska, please go back to the boards over the past two or three years when this issue has been discussed ad nauseum. Sacks are not nearly complete enough of a statistic to adequately describe or demonstrate why the OL has failed. It's but one measure in a collection. Now, if you can find sacks, pressures, hits, false starts, offensive holds (which would have been pressures and/or sacks), then you would have a much greater picture and truer representation of why the OL sucks.

 

The other guys may have gotten sacked more, but it would take all of the aforementioned analysis - not to mention the consistency issue (i.e. the Bears OL taking turns screwing up as opposed to the Packers screwing up on one or two plays) to really see that they've not been under the gun nearly as much as Cutler.

 

 

Not to mention that stat takes in to account each players entire career... Cutler was sacked 11 times in an entire year with Denver, shit he almost hit that in one game against the giants... What's his average with the bears???

[balta1701-A]

Don't care who he chews out...chewing people out is fine.

 

Just be smart enough that it's not on camera.

[adam]

Mad, I think it safe to say that you have an axe to grind for Smith. I know many here do. I understand it, don't agree with it, but respect it. I realize that he (Smith) has a timeline this year to work with, I'm good with that.

 

My "bottom line" is that Cutler is paid to do a job and although he was harrassed his fair share the other day, his throws without looking to see if there is even a receiever in the area is inexcusable. I heard not all that long ago in the big scheme of things, Cutler isn't the highest sacked QB. And a few others that are higher rated, have had success. Roethlisberger and Rodgers are two that were mentioned. In fact here's a graph to illustrate my point.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/lead...perc_active.htm

 

To read it the higher sacked QB's are at the bottom of the list, the lesser at the top. You'll see of the 43 listed, Cutler is 23rd ranked. In fact Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Flacco have been sacked more yet managed to accomplish better results in their respective time frames.

 

So, are Smith, Tice, Emery, Virginia or even Martz responsible for Cutler's bad playing? No, not completly. Is Cutler soley responsible for his poor play? No. But he is certainly the most responsible for himself and HIS abilities. So to settle our obvious disagreeement of Cutler vs Smith, I think it safe to say that how goes Cutler this year, so goes Smith.

For the sack debate, that is a not a very good way to look at it. Now if you take Cutler's time on the Bears only, he is at an 8% sack rate (12.7% this year) which is higher than almost all of the good QB's on that list minus Big Ben and Vick. Those two QBs are very unique. Big Ben is so huge, he will stay in the pocket longer than probably any other QB in the league, so his sack rate is always going to be high. For Vick, his rate is actually around 6% with Philly and his number is only that high because of his ATL days when he was a run first QB. That puts Cutler near the bottom for his caliber.

 

Cutler - 3 years in Denver, 51 sacks, 2010 with Bears, 52 sacks

 

Smith has always backed his QB's, even Grossman, so I wouldn't expect anything different.

[jason]

Not to mention that stat takes in to account each players entire career... Cutler was sacked 11 times in an entire year with Denver, shit he almost hit that in one game against the giants... What's his average with the bears???

 

And I'm quite sure he held the ball the same amount of time with Denver.

 

For some strange reason, many are quick to blame Jay Culter for "holding the ball too long," as if he's always going to hit the max-depth on his drop - whether it is 3, 5, or 7 steps - and immediately throw the ball. Yeah, that philosophy works when you have Jerry Rice and it's 1988, but it doesn't always work like that today. The athletes are much faster and the defenses are much more complex. Jay will have to make reads and go to secondary receivers from time to time. Most QBs in the NFL have this luxury on a frequent enough basis to have some success. Jay does not have this luxury because the Bears OL takes turns screwing up.

 

"Holding the ball too long" is pure judgement, and I think a lot of people like to blame Cutler for it too often when they wouldn't apply the same standards to other QBs.

[GrizzlyBear]

who cares with who he yelled at. Regardless of who he yelled at it all stems from the lack of addressing a real need. Now emery seems to get this. Carimi was a nice selection so far. But i wish he woulda had left tackle ability. Louis seems to panning out at guard and Garza seems to be solid at center. If Emery does not address the left side of the line then Jay should be yelling and standing on Emerys desk.

[Bears4Ever_34]

Tice should be getting the brunt of the blame. I didn't much care for whatever kind of play calling that was last Thursday. But at the same time, you have to also realize that this is a learning experience for him as well. Tice has never been a play caller before. I think he'll adjust, and with the help of Bates, this offense will be putting up a ton of points in no time.

 

I've never been much of a Trent Dilfer fan, but even he called Tice out for what Dilfer said was, "Garbage play calling" in last Thursday's game. He certainly didn't do Jay or that offensive line any favors. That was an identical plan to what Mike Martz was running prior to the interventions that made him change in 2010 and 2011.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I'm sorry, have you not met Mr Dilfer?

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

who cares with who he yelled at. Regardless of who he yelled at it all stems from the lack of addressing a real need. Now emery seems to get this. Carimi was a nice selection so far. But i wish he woulda had left tackle ability. Louis seems to panning out at guard and Garza seems to be solid at center. If Emery does not address the left side of the line then Jay should be yelling and standing on Emerys desk.

 

 

This I would agree with. However, there are those that believe 1st round (or 2nd) is where the team needs to address the OL line. I caution as the team has done that and so far....as of today....only one of the last two (Williams and Carimi) that the team chose are panning out. And for the record, Rachal is a former 2nd rounder, who just this week will be getting his first start with the team.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Alaska, please go back to the boards over the past two or three years when this issue has been discussed ad nauseum. Sacks are not nearly complete enough of a statistic to adequately describe or demonstrate why the OL has failed. It's but one measure in a collection. Now, if you can find sacks, pressures, hits, false starts, offensive holds (which would have been pressures and/or sacks), then you would have a much greater picture and truer representation of why the OL sucks.

 

The other guys may have gotten sacked more, but it would take all of the aforementioned analysis - not to mention the consistency issue (i.e. the Bears OL taking turns screwing up as opposed to the Packers screwing up on one or two plays) to really see that they've not been under the gun nearly as much as Cutler.

 

I could go "back over the years" and look at the discussion on this topic. In fact, I believe you and I have many times discussed the value (or not) in picking an OLman in the 1st round and whether it makes any difference. To me, it doesn't...every time.

 

But that aside, I think sacks are a fair measure and yes they could be paired with a "collection". However I could also say the line has very little to do with it because allegedly the team has had an "elite" running back in Matt Forte who somehow manages to get to close to 1,000 yards each year. Or I could say that the recievers were too small (because that's what Martz liked) or another myriad of things. The one consistent though is that is Cutler, through his time in Chicago and Denver. Just like Roethlisberger in Pittsburgh and Rodgers in Green Bay. In fact I've heard comparisions made to Green Bay and Chicagos oline abilities as similar in (dis) ability. Yet they (Roethlisberger and Rodgers) both can produce despite their olines.

 

As someone mentioned before (think it was Mad) that "there are stats and there lies" so it would depend on which angle you were looking at it to determine how to read them.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

For the sack debate, that is a not a very good way to look at it. Now if you take Cutler's time on the Bears only, he is at an 8% sack rate (12.7% this year) which is higher than almost all of the good QB's on that list minus Big Ben and Vick. Those two QBs are very unique. Big Ben is so huge, he will stay in the pocket longer than probably any other QB in the league, so his sack rate is always going to be high. For Vick, his rate is actually around 6% with Philly and his number is only that high because of his ATL days when he was a run first QB. That puts Cutler near the bottom for his caliber.

 

Cutler - 3 years in Denver, 51 sacks, 2010 with Bears, 52 sacks

 

Smith has always backed his QB's, even Grossman, so I wouldn't expect anything different.

 

Well as I said before, we'll have to see how the year pans out. I hope to be proven wrong but so far I have not been impressed. Like I have been telling my wife the last few years: Jay Cutler is like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. One day great, the next not so. I expect he will be Dr Jekyll this week not soon long followed by another appearance of Mr Hyde.