The Big Negative During The Game

[lemonej]

I don't have a clue what the game plan must have been but if my starting RB (Forte) has 18 yards on his first 2 carries and had 205 last season against the same team the last time we played them,why not call his number until they stop him that first drive was a thing of beauty with him scoring the TD to finish the drive. At the half he was averaging 6.4 yards a carry. So IMO those sacks in the first half are not 100% on the OL and Cutler, I put them on Tice. On the pick Cutler threw,it was a 1 man route and max-protect that allowed the defense to basically quadruple cover the one WR in the route Marshall. Who called that play.? Tice. Some of those plays where Cutler was holding the ball for slow developing can only be attributted to the OC.When Martz was doing this last year we were all over him.Tice is getting too cute in these games if the Panthers are giving up 9 yards a play when you hand off why are we calling pass plays that are not working.Tice is the problem that no one wants to say anything about.

[jason]

I don't have a clue what the game plan must have been but if my starting RB (Forte) has 18 yards on his first 2 carries and had 205 last season against the same team the last time we played them,why not call his number until they stop him that first drive was a thing of beauty with him scoring the TD to finish the drive. At the half he was averaging 6.4 yards a carry. So IMO those sacks in the first half are not 100% on the OL and Cutler, I put them on Tice. On the pick Cutler threw,it was a 1 man route and max-protect that allowed the defense to basically quadruple cover the one WR in the route Marshall. Who called that play.? Tice. Some of those plays where Cutler was holding the ball for slow developing can only be attributted to the OC.When Martz was doing this last year we were all over him.Tice is getting too cute in these games if the Panthers are giving up 9 yards a play when you hand off why are we calling pass plays that are not working.Tice is the problem that no one wants to say anything about.

 

Agreed. But it was fun for everyone to beat on Martz because he wasn't conventional and he expected his OL to, ya know, actually hold a block for more than 1 second.

 

I'll go one further. It's more Tice's fault this year than it was Martz's fault last year, because Tice oversaw the OL each year, is supposed to be an OL expert, and it remains the weakest aspect of the entire team.

[lemonej]

Agreed. But it was fun for everyone to beat on Martz because he wasn't conventional and he expected his OL to, ya know, actually hold a block for more than 1 second.

 

I'll go one further. It's more Tice's fault this year than it was Martz's fault last year, because Tice oversaw the OL each year, is supposed to be an OL expert, and it remains the weakest aspect of the entire team.

Agreed and I will add that his pet (Webb) and his 2nd pet Carimi have not been "potty trained" yet so why is he continuing to call for slow developing pass plays. The first 2 run plays yielded 18 yards with Forte, so why call any pass plays until they stop the run?

 

BTW Jason I'm off all week and will respond a lot faster this week.LOL

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Now hold on a second, that pick that took place (in the Carolina game) was not Tices fault. Jay has to look at what is presented him and realize that if there are three or four players covering his receiver, that deep in the field, chancres are it ain't gonna end up in your receivers hands. Even the announcers showed the Bears were in max protect, with one wideout down field (Marshall) thus making the receiver options pretty limited. Jay was able to stand there long enough do the protection was there. Why didn't he instead look for an outlet or even attempt a run?

 

Give me a break about Martz and how he was some sort of scapegoat for last year. His playcalling was bad. What had happened with him in Detroit and SF finally caught up with the Bears. The Air Coryell system won't work unless you are able to do protection. Everyone knows that Martz liked the multi step drop back. That won't work most times as it tend to put the QB behind the pocket.

 

Jay needs to remember there are other receivers besides Marshall on the team. That was proven when Bennett started to get involved. Things opened up a lot more once he started to remember that.

[Mongo3451]

Now hold on a second, that pick that took place (in the Carolina game) was not Tices fault. Jay has to look at what is presented him and realize that if there are three or four players covering his receiver, that deep in the field, chancres are it ain't gonna end up in your receivers hands. Even the announcers showed the Bears were in max protect, with one wideout down field (Marshall) thus making the receiver options pretty limited. Jay was able to stand there long enough do the protection was there. Why didn't he instead look for an outlet or even attempt a run?

 

Give me a break about Martz and how he was some sort of scapegoat for last year. His playcalling was bad. What had happened with him in Detroit and SF finally caught up with the Bears. The Air Coryell system won't work unless you are able to do protection. Everyone knows that Martz liked the multi step drop back. That won't work most times as it tend to put the QB behind the pocket.

 

Jay needs to remember there are other receivers besides Marshall on the team. That was proven when Bennett started to get involved. Things opened up a lot more once he started to remember that.

 

Also, if Cutler uses good mechanics and steps into that throw, it is NOT underthrown and Marshall has a chance. 100% on Cutler. OTOH, totally agree we should have ran till the well went dry. I think Tice and Cutler are both a tad impatient...

[madlithuanian]

...it's a work in progress. My hope is that it starts hitting on all cylinders as the regular season winds down and the post heats up...

 

Also, if Cutler uses good mechanics and steps into that throw, it is NOT underthrown and Marshall has a chance. 100% on Cutler. OTOH, totally agree we should have ran till the well went dry. I think Tice and Cutler are both a tad impatient...

 

[Boston Boxer]

the way they moved the ball at the end of the game...they need to explore the hurry up more often. It is extremely well done by the Patriots and Broncos and there is no reason the Bears couldn't do it as well. It keeps the defense on its heels and actually benefits the offensive line since it wears down the dline.

 

something to think about

[Alaskan Grizzly]

the way they moved the ball at the end of the game...they need to explore the hurry up more often. It is extremely well done by the Patriots and Broncos and there is no reason the Bears couldn't do it as well. It keeps the defense on its heels and actually benefits the offensive line since it wears down the dline.

 

something to think about

 

Couldn't agree more. I'm a big fan of "hurry up". Would really like to see it utilized more.

[AZ54]

Cutler had a bad game period. Given his injury against Detroit and the fact he could barely throw afterwards I was happy he was in the Carolina game. I wasn't surprised his deep throw came up short by 5 yards but I was surprised we called that play. This week he has an extra day to rest and hopefully two weeks removed from the injury he won't be feeling the effects in his throwing. Or in his head.

[jason]

Now hold on a second, that pick that took place (in the Carolina game) was not Tices fault. Jay has to look at what is presented him and realize that if there are three or four players covering his receiver, that deep in the field, chancres are it ain't gonna end up in your receivers hands. Even the announcers showed the Bears were in max protect, with one wideout down field (Marshall) thus making the receiver options pretty limited. Jay was able to stand there long enough do the protection was there. Why didn't he instead look for an outlet or even attempt a run?

 

Give me a break about Martz and how he was some sort of scapegoat for last year. His playcalling was bad. What had happened with him in Detroit and SF finally caught up with the Bears. The Air Coryell system won't work unless you are able to do protection. Everyone knows that Martz liked the multi step drop back. That won't work most times as it tend to put the QB behind the pocket.

 

Jay needs to remember there are other receivers besides Marshall on the team. That was proven when Bennett started to get involved. Things opened up a lot more once he started to remember that.

 

Um...he didn't check down because it was a one wideout play. That was the design. Should he have forced it? Probably not. But he actually underthrew the ball a bit, and if he had led it some more there was a decent chance that Marshall brings it down. I would have preferred he just took off with it.

 

The Martz vs. Tice comments you don't like are, unfortunately, true. Martz could call ten plays in a row that torched a defense, but nobody would make a peep. The second he called a 7-step drop? All hell breaks loose. Tice needs to be held under a microscope with just as much, if not more, power, because he's supposedly this OL guru who hasn't coached up a good OL the entire time he's been here.

[balta1701-A]

Um...he didn't check down because it was a one wideout play. That was the design. Should he have forced it? Probably not. But he actually underthrew the ball a bit, and if he had led it some more there was a decent chance that Marshall brings it down. I would have preferred he just took off with it.

 

The Martz vs. Tice comments you don't like are, unfortunately, true. Martz could call ten plays in a row that torched a defense, but nobody would make a peep. The second he called a 7-step drop? All hell breaks loose. Tice needs to be held under a microscope with just as much, if not more, power, because he's supposedly this OL guru who hasn't coached up a good OL the entire time he's been here.

If the "Nobody would make a peep" line was true, then I should be able to go to the Bears offensive stats, particularly for when Cutler was playing last year, and find that the Bears were a very solid passing team overall. Do you think that's the case?

 

Cutler had a 58% completion percentage and averaged 231 yards per game for the games he played last year. That would tie the Bears with Buffalo in passing yards/game if he'd done that the whole year, right in the 15th slot.

 

If Martz was calling 10 plays in a row that torched a defense, I'd have been thrilled and I'd have complained a lot louder when he departed. He wasn't. The Bears passing attack was middle of the league with Cutler at best. You can blame this on players...but you can't tell me that the coaches have no impact on what players are brought in to play what positions.

[jason]

If the "Nobody would make a peep" line was true, then I should be able to go to the Bears offensive stats, particularly for when Cutler was playing last year, and find that the Bears were a very solid passing team overall. Do you think that's the case?

 

Cutler had a 58% completion percentage and averaged 231 yards per game for the games he played last year. That would tie the Bears with Buffalo in passing yards/game if he'd done that the whole year, right in the 15th slot.

 

If Martz was calling 10 plays in a row that torched a defense, I'd have been thrilled and I'd have complained a lot louder when he departed. He wasn't. The Bears passing attack was middle of the league with Cutler at best. You can blame this on players...but you can't tell me that the coaches have no impact on what players are brought in to play what positions.

 

The first sentence is a ridiculous stretch, and you know it. Ten plays don't make a quarter, much less a half, much less a game, much less a season. And even if they did, it's still up to the players to execute. You could call the "Annexation of Puerto Rico" and if the players don't block, it's going to fail. Ultimately the OC is not to blame when the players continue to shit the bed. That's why I thought Martz took too much heat. Tice as well. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

The coaches certainly have impact, but it's ultimately the players that determine success. There are good coaches the get undermined by bad players, and bad coaches that get continually saved by good players.

 

In the end, the Bears offense was better at passing last year, and ranked the exact same as this year in the rushing department. So, why isn't Tice taking the heat that Martz took?

[madlithuanian]

First year doing it...not known as a genius, and more likable...

 

In the end, the Bears offense was better at passing last year, and ranked the exact same as this year in the rushing department. So, why isn't Tice taking the heat that Martz took?

 

[madlithuanian]

I swear this is a deja vu conversation!

 

Couldn't agree more. I'm a big fan of "hurry up". Would really like to see it utilized more.

 

[BearFan2000]

I'll go one further. It's more Tice's fault this year than it was Martz's fault last year, because Tice oversaw the OL each year, is supposed to be an OL expert, and it remains the weakest aspect of the entire team.

 

 

Well you can work with a stool of turds all you want but at the end of the day all you have is a stool of turds.... At some point you have to give Tice better talent to work with. We have a group of guys who most of which would be backups elsewhere yet we're trying to make them starters because it's the best of limited options. The real problem is we have ignored the offensive line and keep saying "we like our guys" We spent a first round pick last draft on a head scratcher of a pick when there were quality OL guys on the board.. Not making excuses for Tice as he's made his share of mistakes and hasn't seemed to live up to the OL expert billing. But you have to wonder if he had more talent to work with would we be having this conversation?

[Alaskan Grizzly]

You know what I find funny (maybe ironic) is that most here insist the root of the problem is the Oline. So JA drafts two Tackles in the first round and first Williams doesn't cut it then it appears so will (not) Carimi. Then everyone says "no, not those two" they shoulda picked so-and-so (insert another name). I still remember when Carimi was picked and how much elation there was with the pick. Yet now we find ourselves trying to make the best of it with him and Webb on the other side.

 

As Brian(?) pointed out, instead Emery goes and secures other talent for skill positions (always a wise choice in my book) for cost. And didn't address the OL in hindsight as many had hoped. But he thought like some of us that our team could get by with what it had and went aggressively after players of more value.

 

And now, as Cutler so eloquently put, "these f*#ing fans, I swear to God" are griping about players (Williams and Carimi) that at one time were touted by the "experts" to be what they really weren't: first round talent. Again, another proof of how pointless mock drafts and people like Mike Mayock are.

[jason]

Well you can work with a stool of turds all you want but at the end of the day all you have is a stool of turds.... At some point you have to give Tice better talent to work with. We have a group of guys who most of which would be backups elsewhere yet we're trying to make them starters because it's the best of limited options. The real problem is we have ignored the offensive line and keep saying "we like our guys" We spent a first round pick last draft on a head scratcher of a pick when there were quality OL guys on the board.. Not making excuses for Tice as he's made his share of mistakes and hasn't seemed to live up to the OL expert billing. But you have to wonder if he had more talent to work with would we be having this conversation?

 

I agree. The OC needs better tools to work with. And you're preaching to the leader of the choir in regards to the OL.

 

So all that doesn't also apply to Martz?

[jason]

You know what I find funny (maybe ironic) is that most here insist the root of the problem is the Oline. So JA drafts two Tackles in the first round and first Williams doesn't cut it then it appears so will (not) Carimi. Then everyone says "no, not those two" they shoulda picked so-and-so (insert another name). I still remember when Carimi was picked and how much elation there was with the pick. Yet now we find ourselves trying to make the best of it with him and Webb on the other side.

 

As Brian(?) pointed out, instead Emery goes and secures other talent for skill positions (always a wise choice in my book) for cost. And didn't address the OL in hindsight as many had hoped. But he thought like some of us that our team could get by with what it had and went aggressively after players of more value.

 

And now, as Cutler so eloquently put, "these f*#ing fans, I swear to God" are griping about players (Williams and Carimi) that at one time were touted by the "experts" to be what they really weren't: first round talent. Again, another proof of how pointless mock drafts and people like Mike Mayock are.

 

I loved both the Williams pick and the Carimi pick when they happened.

 

I am virtually the only one that still thinks the LT job should have been Williams', and not that scrub Webb's. I think Williams' failure is just as much on the coaches (particularly Tice), as it is the player's. He dicked around with Williams' position, playing time, and screwed the guy coming off of injury. Then he found a favorite player and gave the guy, despite horrible performance, an advantage in a "competition" for the starting LT spot.

 

I still think Carimi could be a stud.

 

But pointing to two 1st rounders when it's been argued, documented, and repeatedly shown that the DL has received an ridiculously higher dosage of draft picks is neither funny nor ironic. The OL is comprised of five players, not two. Go back to when Lovie came on board (2004), and you have (I swear I've given these stats fifty freaking times):

 

OL: two 1st rounders, one 4th rounder, one 6th rounder, five 7th rounders

DL: two 1st rounders, three 2nd rounders, two 3rd rounders, two 4th rounders, two 5th rounders, one 7th rounder

 

This is still a management problem, and until they get the OL fixed - by extension the offense gets fixed since other areas have been addressed - the collective of all OLinemen, not just the 1st rounders will face the disapproval of the fans.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I loved both the Williams pick and the Carimi pick when they happened.

 

I am virtually the only one that still thinks the LT job should have been Williams', and not that scrub Webb's. I think Williams' failure is just as much on the coaches (particularly Tice), as it is the player's. He dicked around with Williams' position, playing time, and screwed the guy coming off of injury. Then he found a favorite player and gave the guy, despite horrible performance, an advantage in a "competition" for the starting LT spot.

 

I still think Carimi could be a stud.

 

But pointing to two 1st rounders when it's been argued, documented, and repeatedly shown that the DL has received an ridiculously higher dosage of draft picks is neither funny nor ironic. The OL is comprised of five players, not two. Go back to when Lovie came on board (2004), and you have (I swear I've given these stats fifty freaking times):

 

OL: two 1st rounders, one 4th rounder, one 6th rounder, five 7th rounders

DL: two 1st rounders, three 2nd rounders, two 3rd rounders, two 4th rounders, two 5th rounders, one 7th rounder

 

This is still a management problem, and until they get the OL fixed - by extension the offense gets fixed since other areas have been addressed - the collective of all OLinemen, not just the 1st rounders will face the disapproval of the fans.

 

I too thought that Williams may have benefited from staying at LT. Regardless, I can't help but think there must have been a reason why he didn't. I know he had injury issues coming out of college. I don't necessarily agree that Tice "dicked" with Williams' playing time and chose his pet in Webb. I think, as I've said before, that Tice worked with what he had.

 

I'm beginnig to have strong doubts about Carimi. You compare him this year to last, he looks physically different. Sure he's still tall but he looks smaller...weaker. Something is going on with him and I don't think he can hold up at Tackle much longer. Guard maybe?

 

Now if you were in either Lovie's or Emery's shoes, I'm sure that the Bears would have one of the best OL's in the league. There would be across the board 1st rounders in each position and all would be bound for Canton. But the very arguement you make for Lovie's choosing top rated talent for the DL has only hurt the point you're trying to make. Where is the Bear's defense currently rated? And why? Because their DL is probably one of the best. Most due to the rotation they have and getting fresh players in for every few plays. *Edit* And there are four Defensive linemen (not two) for the type of Defense run in Chicago. There is no question the correlation to Peanut and Jennings' success this year is in large part due to the DL's ability to pressure the QB's. Thusly so is the improved play of the LB's and the Safeties. They are all inter-related. And interestingly enough, Lovie's forte (no pun intended) is Defense.

 

Consistently thoroughout the years the Defense is what has made Chicago teams. Heck, even in '85 the Defense was better than the Offense. "Monster's of the Midway" did not come from the powerful offensive teams the Bears produced over the years.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

I too thought that Williams may have benefited from staying at LT. Regardless, I can't help but think there must have been a reason why he didn't. I know he had injury issues coming out of college. I don't necessarily agree that Tice "dicked" with Williams' playing time and chose his pet in Webb. I think, as I've said before, that Tice worked with what he had.

 

I'm beginnig to have strong doubts about Carimi. You compare him this year to last, he looks physically different. Sure he's still tall but he looks smaller...weaker. Something is going on with him and I don't think he can hold up at Tackle much longer. Guard maybe?

 

Now if you were in either Lovie's or Emery's shoes, I'm sure that the Bears would have one of the best OL's in the league. There would be across the board 1st rounders in each position and all would be bound for Canton. But the very arguement you make for Lovie's choosing top rated talent for the DL has only hurt the point you're trying to make. Where is the Bear's defense currently rated? And why? Because their DL is probably one of the best. Most due to the rotation they have and getting fresh players in for every few plays. There is no question the correlation to Peanut and Jennings' success this year is in large part due to the DL's ability to pressure the QB's. Thusly so is the improved play of the LB's and the Safeties. They are all inter-related. And interestingly enough, Lovie's forte (no pun intended) is Defense.

 

Consistently thoroughout the years the Defense is what has made Chicago teams. Heck, even in '85 the Defense was better than the Offense. "Monster's of the Midway" did not come from the powerful offensive teams the Bears produced over the years.

 

You are right, Carimi came into camp 10 pounds lighter, and added muscle to his leaner frame. He should be quicker and stronger...

 

Couple things with Carimi is, he is going into his 9th NFL game and his knee is still probably not 100%. I think it is still too early to claim him as a bust. Sometimes it takes a year or two for these players to get there body/mind up to nfl caliber.

[jason]

I too thought that Williams may have benefited from staying at LT. Regardless, I can't help but think there must have been a reason why he didn't. I know he had injury issues coming out of college. I don't necessarily agree that Tice "dicked" with Williams' playing time and chose his pet in Webb. I think, as I've said before, that Tice worked with what he had.

 

I'm beginnig to have strong doubts about Carimi. You compare him this year to last, he looks physically different. Sure he's still tall but he looks smaller...weaker. Something is going on with him and I don't think he can hold up at Tackle much longer. Guard maybe?

 

Now if you were in either Lovie's or Emery's shoes, I'm sure that the Bears would have one of the best OL's in the league. There would be across the board 1st rounders in each position and all would be bound for Canton. But the very arguement you make for Lovie's choosing top rated talent for the DL has only hurt the point you're trying to make. Where is the Bear's defense currently rated? And why? Because their DL is probably one of the best. Most due to the rotation they have and getting fresh players in for every few plays. *Edit* And there are four Defensive linemen (not two) for the type of Defense run in Chicago. There is no question the correlation to Peanut and Jennings' success this year is in large part due to the DL's ability to pressure the QB's. Thusly so is the improved play of the LB's and the Safeties. They are all inter-related. And interestingly enough, Lovie's forte (no pun intended) is Defense.

 

Consistently thoroughout the years the Defense is what has made Chicago teams. Heck, even in '85 the Defense was better than the Offense. "Monster's of the Midway" did not come from the powerful offensive teams the Bears produced over the years.

 

You're setting up the strawman. I wouldn't require 1st rounders across the board on the OL. I'd simply require a blend of talents, a yearly attention to a position group that sorely needs it. Arguing the way I am is actually in favor of the Lovie Smith draft philosophy (i.e. more picks at a specific position make a position better), because Lovie spent a lot of picks on the DL and it's doing well. It stands to reason that if he did the same thing for the OL, or any position, they would be a lot better. This is plain and simple logic. But when building a football team you can't put all (or a great majority) of your eggs in one basket. All I'm saying is that the OL should have been thrown a bone of the last several years.

 

This is what Lovie and his front office has done:

OL: 11,4,6,77777

DL: 11,222,33,44,55,7

 

To be honest, I think a more sound draft philosophy would be to flip-flop the OL/DL drafting strategy since the OL typically protects the most important player on the team. Look how bad the Bears looked when Cutler went down. Look how the NFL is steering towards an offense-dominated league. Look at how well the Bears do when Cutler gets time. Look at how poorly they do when he is running for his life.

 

You're telling me the DL couldn't have spared one of those 2nd rounders? Maybe a 3rd? A 4th?!

Tank Johnson in 2004? Coulda been Max Starks.

Dusty Dvoracek in 2006? Coulda been Jahri Evans.

Dan Bazuin in 2007? Coulda been Marshall Yanda.

Marcus Harrison in 2008? Coulda been Carl Nicks.

 

I'm not saying the OL replacements above would have been selected in the same slot as their DL counterparts. I'm just saying that none of those DL guys are consequential, and the pick could have helped the team elsewhere. And maybe, just maybe, if the HC/FO wasn't so focused on DL, a gem could have been discovered on the OL and we wouldn't be having this conversation for the 5th/6th/7th? year in a row.

[lemonej]

When I started this thread I was pointing to the questionable play calling that Tice did during the game.If I'm running the ball at a 6.4 yards per clip with one player in the first half then maybe I need to run the ball a little more in the second half after I see that we are having trouble protecting against the pass rush when players like Greg Hardy who coming out was highly touted are having career games in one half but prior to this game haven't done squat.My comments were also based on the fact that Forte was going to help this team have a blowout but the play calling got too cute and needed to force the ball to Marshall who since Jeffrey has been gone is the only target that Cutler looks for. Stats support that comment because Jeffery is still the number 2 WR in receptions with Bennett and Hester only combining for 23 receptions period. My comments were not to rekindle the debate about the OL because right now nothing can be done about it and if you do something during the draft it still is going to take time. My only hope is that I hope Tice learns that when you do run the ball at teams early and often you can slow down the pass rush later in the game.