bowlingtwig Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Your right about the 40 time not being the main attraction, but in the NFL speed matters. a 4.55 guy aint the same as a 4.33 guy. Tell that to anquan boldin. Hes had a good career and his 40 time was 4.72. In the NFL its not just speed. There is so much more to it than that fir a WR. Hands, route running ability, ability to separate, footwork. Etc etc etc. That's my whole point. Scs on his list named Charles Hawkins. Sub 4.3 40 time yet couldn't catch 30 balls last yr. Its 1 thing to have speed and its whole other thing to be a good WR with speed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Jeffrey isn't a home run hitter. Never has been. Just curious, but did you see this play? http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlig...-long-touchdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Just curious, but did you see this play? http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlig...-long-touchdown Or this one.... http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/0ap20000001...-out-to-Jeffery Or what about this one.... http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/0ap20000001...-yard-touchdown he also caught one for 30 yards in that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Just curious, but did you see this play? http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlig...-long-touchdown [/quo Ah yes that 1 lol. DB became flat footed which allowed Jeffrey to get behind him lol. If that means hes a home run hitter then i guess wes welker is 1 also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Or this one.... http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/0ap20000001...-out-to-Jeffery Or what about this one.... http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/0ap20000001...-yard-touchdown The 2nd one was a 23 yd hookup. Your seriously using this as proof that he's a home run threat. Wow. U just proved that no matter what proof i provide that u cant be convinced otherwise. Anyone can have a couple plays where they take top off defense but at this point jeffrey is not a home run threat. He's a tall possession type WR that can occasionally take top off. He could become that guy if he learns to separate from DBs. He excels at using his body very well to shield defender. He has good hands and rums good routes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 He separated from the receiver in those 23 yards didn't he? That colts game was against Vontae Davis who is a very good DB. Him, and Marshall can make plays deep down the field. They may not get ridiculous separation like Hester can but it's not like they cant make big plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Ah yes that 1 lol. DB became flat footed which allowed Jeffrey to get behind him lol. If that means hes a home run hitter then i guess wes welker is 1 also. Maybe I'm confused by the baseball reference, but if a guy has enough speed to stay ahead of a DB that he juked and catch it over his shoulder, that's a HR hitter IMO. Perhaps you meant more of a speed guy that keeps the safeties playing back consistently. Kind of a Hester - but with hands and technique. I actually prefer the bigger guys that can do a bit of both because the small quick guys are almost useless in the red zone but the bigger guys can win a jump ball. (to mix up the sports metaphors even more) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Maybe I'm confused by the baseball reference, but if a guy has enough speed to stay ahead of a DB that he juked and catch it over his shoulder, that's a HR hitter IMO. Perhaps you meant more of a speed guy that keeps the safeties playing back consistently. Kind of a Hester - but with hands and technique. I actually prefer the bigger guys that can do a bit of both because the small quick guys are almost useless in the red zone but the bigger guys can win a jump ball. (to mix up the sports metaphors even more) According to u 2 we already have a guy who can consistently take top of defense. So tell me why every analyst says we need to get a guy who can do it. All those guys must be idiots i guess. Look i love Jeffrey and think he will do great things as a #2 nxt to marshall but how many times did we actually see him create separatio. Sure he did a few times. Most can do it a couple times but he doesn't do it consistently at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 There is no taking the top off the defense in a west coast offense. You kill teams with the underneath passes, forcing corners and safeties to move in and thats when you have guy CBs getting "flat footed" expecting them to break it off and guys going deep. I'm not against it, at all, I'm just saying one in the early rounds or free agency isn't needed. That's my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bears4Ever_34 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Last comment on this subject. The larger point of all of this revolves around the Bears needing to become a more dynamic offense with players who have complimentary skill sets. The Saints are the standard for offensive efficiency and excellence. They are good because they have a Hall of Fame quarterback in combination with the vast array of varying skill sets between their receivers, TE's, and Rb's. Marcus Colston is different from Lance Moore, who's different from Devery Henderson. Pierre Thomas is different from Darren Sproles. Jimmy Graham is one of the fastest TE's in football. Everyone brings something different to the table. Brandon Marshall and Alshon Jeffery do not compliment each other. They both have very similar skill sets. Earl Bennett doesn't provide you with any complimentary skill either because like the other two, he is also more of a posession receiver. If the Bears want to become a dangerous offensive force, they need to add more players who aren't the same. It's just common sense. Too many of the same guys makes the offense more predictable and easier to defend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 According to u 2 we already have a guy who can consistently take top of defense. So tell me why every analyst says we need to get a guy who can do it. All those guys must be idiots i guess. Which guys are saying that and I'll tell you if they are idiots or not. (For instance, guys that have said in the past that we needed a 1st round cover corner in the Tampa-2 ARE idiots because they didn't understand the scheme) Look i love Jeffrey and think he will do great things as a #2 nxt to marshall but how many times did we actually see him create separatio. Sure he did a few times. Most can do it a couple times but he doesn't do it consistently at all I think Jeffery will get better with experience. We got more out of him as a rookie than I expected. I haven't done exhaustive film study on this, but I think Jeffery was mostly used as a possession guy. A receiver can only run the routes they are assigned and I don't think Jeffery had that many deep called for him, but when he did, they worked if Cutler had time to throw the ball deep. I also don't think that there will be all that many deep routes in our new west coast offense that can't be run by the guys we already have. I'm not sure your position here as at one point, you're mentioning that 40 times aren't the only issue with HR receivers, and at another spot, you're saying that Jeffery definitely isn't one. Are you suggesting we spend in FA for one or draft one in the first or second? I'm not sure how else we would get one and I think we have greater needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Tell that to anquan boldin. Hes had a good career and his 40 time was 4.72. In the NFL its not just speed. There is so much more to it than that fir a WR. Hands, route running ability, ability to separate, footwork. Etc etc etc. That's my whole point. Scs on his list named Charles Hawkins. Sub 4.3 40 time yet couldn't catch 30 balls last yr. Its 1 thing to have speed and its whole other thing to be a good WR with speed For every example of you giving me one slow guy made good, there will be 5 that didnt. I understand all that it takes to be a good WR, but almost all good teams have a speed guy. Speed is not the only thing, but it does matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Which guys are saying that and I'll tell you if they are idiots or not. (For instance, guys that have said in the past that we needed a 1st round cover corner in the Tampa-2 ARE idiots because they didn't understand the scheme) I think Jeffery will get better with experience. We got more out of him as a rookie than I expected. I haven't done exhaustive film study on this, but I think Jeffery was mostly used as a possession guy. A receiver can only run the routes they are assigned and I don't think Jeffery had that many deep called for him, but when he did, they worked if Cutler had time to throw the ball deep. I also don't think that there will be all that many deep routes in our new west coast offense that can't be run by the guys we already have. I'm not sure your position here as at one point, you're mentioning that 40 times aren't the only issue with HR receivers, and at another spot, you're saying that Jeffery definitely isn't one. Are you suggesting we spend in FA for one or draft one in the first or second? I'm not sure how else we would get one and I think we have greater needs. My position is exactly what bears4ever just said. I don't want to spend big for 1 at all because we must address OL, LB and TE also and if we spend big for 1 it cripples our ability to address other needs. In draft i keep an open mind starting in 2nd rd. If a tavon Austin falls that far we got to take him or trade for a ransom cuz the value is very high for a guy like him. I don't think it will happen but we do need to get a wr who can compliment the others. Just because we are switching to a WCO doesn't mean we never take shots downfield otherwise it takes away 1 thing that separates Cutler from other QBs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 For every example of you giving me one slow guy made good, there will be 5 that didnt. I understand all that it takes to be a good WR, but almost all good teams have a speed guy. Speed is not the only thing, but it does matter. U misunderstood my point. Sorry my bad. I wasn't saying speed dont matter at all. Of course it matters provided guy can do other things as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 My position is exactly what bears4ever just said. I don't want to spend big for 1 at all because we must address OL, LB and TE also and if we spend big for 1 it cripples our ability to address other needs. In draft i keep an open mind starting in 2nd rd. If a tavon Austin falls that far we got to take him or trade for a ransom cuz the value is very high for a guy like him. I don't think it will happen but we do need to get a wr who can compliment the others. Just because we are switching to a WCO doesn't mean we never take shots downfield otherwise it takes away 1 thing that separates Cutler from other QBs I agree that it doesn't mean we never take shots downfield, but I'm saying that we don't necessarily need a new guy to do that since Marshall, Jeffery, and Bennett have all done it in the past from time to time. As you have said, there's more to it than just 40 times and if those guys can sell the short route, then head deep, and keep their step on the DB, they should be fine. I guess to clarify, do we need a speed guy to be a top 5 offense? Probably. Do we need one to be a top 10 offense? Probably not. Significant improvement should come from an improved offensive line and an offense not designed by Mike Tice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I just think a 2nd round pick is too soon, thats all. Tavon Austin is a good player I can't deny that but I like the 3 guys we got. In a west coast offense the most important thing to have is chemistry with your QB, Bennett and Marshall have that with Jay and Alshon is staying in his role. Also, I don't see why 3 possession receivers is a bad thing. It's not like these guys run the same routes and it's not like they all can't go deep. For years before M. Muhammad the Bears were dying for a possession receiver. Joe Morgan was the Saints fastest reciever, their #4 which is what the new guy should be was on the field 30% of the time and caught 10 balls....Often being used as a decoy....You can get a player like that in the 5th or 6th round. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I agree that it doesn't mean we never take shots downfield, but I'm saying that we don't necessarily need a new guy to do that since Marshall, Jeffery, and Bennett have all done it in the past from time to time. As you have said, there's more to it than just 40 times and if those guys can sell the short route, then head deep, and keep their step on the DB, they should be fine. I guess to clarify, do we need a speed guy to be a top 5 offense? Probably. Do we need one to be a top 10 offense? Probably not. Significant improvement should come from an improved offensive line and an offense not designed by Mike Tice. Maybe im an idiot for wanting #1 offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I dont see why they couldn't be with a 5th or 6th rounder....Saints were doing it with 7th rounders and UDFAs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I just think a 2nd round pick is too soon, thats all. Tavon Austin is a good player I can't deny that but I like the 3 guys we got. In a west coast offense the most important thing to have is chemistry with your QB, Bennett and Marshall have that with Jay and Alshon is staying in his role. Also, I don't see why 3 possession receivers is a bad thing. It's not like these guys run the same routes and it's not like they all can't go deep. For years before M. Muhammad the Bears were dying for a possession receiver. Joe Morgan was the Saints fastest reciever, their #4 which is what the new guy should be was on the field 30% of the time and caught 10 balls....Often being used as a decoy....You can get a player like that in the 5th or 6th round. . Please re read what i posted. I never said we must use 2nd for that guy. I simply said keep your options available in the 2nd if a guy like Austin falls. Thats it. No i can't see him falling there but crazier things have happened before. I guess my other point is Bennett and Jeffrey have missed significant time due to injuries so we need to prepare in case that happens again. We can't pretend those 2 won't get injured again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I dont see why they couldn't be with a 5th or 6th rounder....Saints were doing it with 7th rounders and UDFAs. So your basically saying we can go from 29th to 1st with the sane guys by simply switching to WCO. Please pass the kool aid wow. Last yr we saw all to often that Marshall was only guy cutler even trusted. GB beat us both times by shutting Marshall down. This is why a COMPLIMENT WR is needed. Go back to what Bears4ever said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 So your basically saying we can go from 29th to 1st with the sane guys by simply switching to WCO. Please pass the kool aid wow. Last yr we saw all to often that Marshall was only guy cutler even trusted. GB beat us both times by shutting Marshall down. This is why a COMPLIMENT WR is needed. Go back to what Bears4ever said Uh, same guys? They're gonna upgrade the line, add a TE, the backs are gonna play a MUCH bigger role basically making them different players. The play calling will be much better. Jeffery is gonna evolve into a player Jay is more comfortable with. Add in your 5th or 6th round receiver who has some wheels to play a decoy and your set with almost a completely different defense despite a lot of the similar guys. But that's all theoretically speaking, I don't thing Tavon Austin or a 5th or 6th rounder will catapult us to the top top but we'll be good either way. As far as your other post....Thats all I'm debating is I don't want them using a 2nd rounder on a WR, I'm just disputing that part. I never said you said we must I'm just saying it's a bad idea IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Uh, same guys? They're gonna upgrade the line, add a TE, the backs are gonna play a MUCH bigger role basically making them different players. The play calling will be much better. Jeffery is gonna evolve into a player Jay is more comfortable with. Add in your 5th or 6th round receiver who has some wheels to play a decoy and your set with almost a completely different defense despite a lot of the similar guys. As far as your other post....Thats all I'm debating is I don't want them using a 2nd rounder on a WR, I'm just disputing that part. I never said you said we must I'm just saying it's a bad idea IMO. So your guaranteeing all that gets done? More like wishful thinking. Just last yr we said play calling would be much better and jay wouldn't take such a beating and forte would be happy under tice as he said rb would be bigger focus in his play calling. Oline would be better with a lot less 5 and 7 step drops. U really want to guarantee all that. I have some inside knowledge u can share Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 It's yet to be seen of course but with the move to an offensive minded coach I can't imagine it will get ignored again. Idk who was saying the play calling would be better but it sure wasn't me, our OC last year was an OL coach disguised as a OC. Jay was holding onto the ball wayyyyyy to long last year because he rarely had a safety valve underneath, I think that aspect alone will make the offense better. It doesn't matter how many steps you take if you're still holding onto the ball for as long as he did. It's hard to imagine the backs won't play a huge part in the offense....You got Trestman who once had Charlie Garner have 91 REC and 934 receiving yards. Plus you got Kromer coming over from the Saints where there backs bearly had 100 more receptions than our backs. If Forte stays healthy all year and doesn't have more than 70 REC I will be somewhat shocked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 It's yet to be seen of course but with the move to an offensive minded coach I can't imagine it will get ignored again. Idk who was saying the play calling would be better but it sure wasn't me, our OC last year was an OL coach disguised as a OC. Jay was holding onto the ball wayyyyyy to long last year because he rarely had a safety valve underneath, I think that aspect alone will make the offense better. It doesn't matter how many steps you take if you're still holding onto the ball for as long as he did. It's hard to imagine the backs won't play a huge part in the offense....You got Trestman who once had Charlie Garner have 91 REC and 934 receiving yards. Plus you got Kromer coming over from the Saints where there backs bearly had 100 more receptions than our backs. If Forte stays healthy all year and doesn't have more than 70 REC I will be somewhat shocked. This is assuming everything goes according to your plan and everyone stays healthy lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 This is assuming everything goes according to your plan and everyone stays healthy lol Do all of those things get resolved if we get a speed guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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