Webb Nation

[jason]

Ya I probably shouldn't compare a player who ranked 45th in pass protection with a guy who ranked 35th...or a guy who gave up a hurry every 15 snaps with a guy who gave up a hurry every 20.

 

Such a stupid comparison on my part...my bad

 

Dude...will you quit masturbating to those obviously incomplete and questionable OL stats! I wish they would have never been mentioned by Emery.

 

It doesn't matter what gets brought up, Bushrod is leaps and bounds above Webb.

 

[Bears4Ever_34]

I know your trying to make a case for Webb but the fact is, is every GM in the league would take Bushrod over Webb and that is a fact you cant change.

I wouldn't because of the money. The hope is to get somebody better than Bushrod, because he isn't that great either.

[scs787]

Dude...will you quit masturbating to those obviously incomplete and questionable OL stats! I wish they would have never been mentioned by Emery.

 

It doesn't matter what gets brought up, Bushrod is leaps and bounds above Webb.

 

 

Excuse me for trying to be a little bit like the Bears GM by looking at our players in an unbiased fashion. It's hard for the 1 hurry every 15 snaps (Bushrod) vs 20 snaps (Webb) that I presented to be "incomplete and questionable".

 

it's also hard to ignore when reading A TON of different (Saints fans, PFF, and other experts) reports saying that he's not a good pass protector, he rode on the coattails of Evans and Grubbs, and people saying he's not even a LT.

 

He may be better but not 5-7 million dollars better.

 

 

No mater how incomplete and questionable the ratings may be, he went from -35 to -16.2 to -0.7...I don't think it's outlandish to think that at 24 he will still continue to improve. Esp with the RBs getting more involved in the pass game and the addition of a TE.

[AZ54]

I'll agree Saints pass protection always looked good but guys did get around the edges. They didn't get up the middle. I still think the organization goes inside to fix our line and Webb, with a better Oline coach and scheme to help him may still be our LT. If Cutler can step up, and he has that vision, those misses won't be as bad.

 

Trying to read the tea leaves here it seem we're done with Spencer and EWilliams. Carimi being talked about as potential OG, team wants to keep Scott. Louis unsigned but I think that deal gets done. Cooper makes a ton of sense at 20, smart, athletic and can play OG or C. Wildcard here, and nobody has talked about him yet (at least not that I've seen) is James Brown. Is he OG or OT? Or is he off the team?

 

I still believe there is a FA Oline headed our way soon just not likely the big name LT we'd like to see due to budget constraints. I'll guess we add a FA OG to the mix but I'm still sticking with Cooper in Rd 1.

 

 

 

[Mongo3451]

I'll agree Saints pass protection always looked good but guys did get around the edges. They didn't get up the middle. I still think the organization goes inside to fix our line and Webb, with a better Oline coach and scheme to help him may still be our LT. If Cutler can step up, and he has that vision, those misses won't be as bad.

This is my thinking going forward.

 

Trying to read the tea leaves here it seem we're done with Spencer and EWilliams. Carimi being talked about as potential OG, team wants to keep Scott. Louis unsigned but I think that deal gets done. Cooper makes a ton of sense at 20, smart, athletic and can play OG or C. Wildcard here, and nobody has talked about him yet (at least not that I've seen) is James Brown. Is he OG or OT? Or is he off the team?

Someone mentioned him earlier in this thread.

 

I still believe there is a FA Oline headed our way soon just not likely the big name LT we'd like to see due to budget constraints. I'll guess we add a FA OG to the mix but I'm still sticking with Cooper in Rd 1.

Cooper RD 1 and Jones RD 2 are my wish list. Levitre in FA would ice the cake.

 

[Stinger226]

Excuse me for trying to be a little bit like the Bears GM by looking at our players in an unbiased fashion. It's hard for the 1 hurry every 15 snaps (Bushrod) vs 20 snaps (Webb) that I presented to be "incomplete and questionable".

 

it's also hard to ignore when reading A TON of different (Saints fans, PFF, and other experts) reports saying that he's not a good pass protector, he rode on the coattails of Evans and Grubbs, and people saying he's not even a LT.

 

He may be better but not 5-7 million dollars better.

 

 

No mater how incomplete and questionable the ratings may be, he went from -35 to -16.2 to -0.7...I don't think it's outlandish to think that at 24 he will still continue to improve. Esp with the RBs getting more involved in the pass game and the addition of a TE.

I looked back at all the responses on this thread and YOU are the one that brought Bushrod up. He is just an alternative choice we may have. He is not the top of the food chain, but he is better than Webb. There are other names in FAgency, and almost all are better than Webb. He went from Worst to bad , to almost not as bad. I would rather take a player that has actually played well at some time in his career, as to some one (that did not look terrible) ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT

[jason]

Excuse me for trying to be a little bit like the Bears GM by looking at our players in an unbiased fashion. It's hard for the 1 hurry every 15 snaps (Bushrod) vs 20 snaps (Webb) that I presented to be "incomplete and questionable".

 

Who's to say the ratings don't have bias? They're still done by humans, aren't they? It's not difficult at all to see the results to be incomplete and questionable when the metrics that constitute "hurry" are unrevealed.

 

it's also hard to ignore when reading A TON of different (Saints fans, PFF, and other experts) reports saying that he's not a good pass protector, he rode on the coattails of Evans and Grubbs, and people saying he's not even a LT.

 

Yeah, let's just get the "expert" thing out of the way. They're "experts" as much as this board is full of "experts." For the most part, it's just dudes like us giving opinion. And while I'd say - and have said more than once - we'd do just as good of a job picking players as many of the league "experts," that doesn't make us "experts." As for Saints fans, I'd have to spend more time actually reading a bunch of their thoughts rather than reading one or two cherry-picked comments.

 

He may be better but not 5-7 million dollars better.

 

With this I agree. At some point, all upgrades can possibly be cost prohibitive.

 

No mater how incomplete and questionable the ratings may be, he went from -35 to -16.2 to -0.7...I don't think it's outlandish to think that at 24 he will still continue to improve. Esp with the RBs getting more involved in the pass game and the addition of a TE.

 

Um...if the nature of the stats are in question, you can't really use the stats to validate anything. And while the human eye from someone who has watched all the games says that he has improved, Stinger has been telling you why it doesn't matter. Improving from worst in the league to horrible to subpar doesn't mean he's good. It doesn't even mean he's guaranteed to keep improving. It's not outlandish, but for all we know last year was his peak. Why keep subjecting the offense, and Jay Cutler's health, to an experiment that may or may not turn out?

[scs787]

I looked back at all the responses on this thread and YOU are the one that brought Bushrod up. He is just an alternative choice we may have. He is not the top of the food chain, but he is better than Webb. There are other names in FAgency, and almost all are better than Webb. He went from Worst to bad , to almost not as bad. I would rather take a player that has actually played well at some time in his career, as to some one (that did not look terrible) ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT

 

 

Once again, I brought up Bushrod after Terra once again bashed Webb to the tune of saying he doesn't even deserve a job in the NFL. Terra in his mock wanted to pay JB 7M a year and that is why he was brought up. It was a dig at him for saying a guy who was a worse pass protector than Webb deserves 7M while Webb doesn't even deserve a job. Then you chimed in and things escalated to where they are now.

 

Beatty and Albert would be better, and both are rumored to return their respect teams. Albert probably hits the market though and will cost a pretty penny.

 

We have a 7th round pick who was thrown into the fire way to quickly (how many 7th round picks start right away?) who has developed every year he's been here. He's got 1 more year on his contract, if he doesn't to continue to develop then he's gone. The Saints blocking scheme got by with worse as far as protection goes at LT.

 

Give the big money to a OG like the Saints have done. Spread out the defense with 5 receivers and force LBs to cover our backs/TEs. Those things will help create much easier match ups up front and thus make the OL better.

 

Who's to say the ratings don't have bias? They're still done by humans, aren't they? It's not difficult at all to see the results to be incomplete and questionable when the metrics that constitute "hurry" are unrevealed.

 

 

 

Yeah, let's just get the "expert" thing out of the way. They're "experts" as much as this board is full of "experts." For the most part, it's just dudes like us giving opinion. And while I'd say - and have said more than once - we'd do just as good of a job picking players as many of the league "experts," that doesn't make us "experts." As for Saints fans, I'd have to spend more time actually reading a bunch of their thoughts rather than reading one or two cherry-picked comments.

 

 

 

With this I agree. At some point, all upgrades can possibly be cost prohibitive.

 

 

 

Um...if the nature of the stats are in question, you can't really use the stats to validate anything. And while the human eye from someone who has watched all the games says that he has improved, Stinger has been telling you why it doesn't matter. Improving from worst in the league to horrible to subpar doesn't mean he's good. It doesn't even mean he's guaranteed to keep improving. It's not outlandish, but for all we know last year was his peak. Why keep subjecting the offense, and Jay Cutler's health, to an experiment that may or may not turn out?

 

 

There are multiple teams that use PFF I've read. The Giants brought in the guy who started it to help him out before the super bowl years ago. I think these guys know what they're doing otherwise it probably wouldn't be looked at by NFL teams. If you look at their way of grading it's a pretty sound way of doing things as they take everything into account. However it is they grade Webb has made a significant jump each year in those gradings. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibilities that he does it again this year in an offense that will help him big time by getting the ball out quicker.

 

As for Bushrod spend as much time as you'd like looking at Saints fans and Saints beat writers comments on him. I cherry picked that 1 comment because it summed up the whole boards thoughts on him. I knew people wouldnt actually go to the link I provided them with like you obviously didn't.

[lemonej]

Webb continuing to start at LOT would be a mistake in my opinion and if I had to compare him to an LT of the past Bernard "False Start"Robertson comes to mind. Part of the problem is he was thrown into the fire too soon and the other problem is his drive.When you compare his drive to the OL prospect I have touted Barrett Jones there as different as night and day. When Jones QB got in his face ,he pushed him away and when Cutler pushed Webb during a game he just laughed about it. Webb is what he is a 7th round draft pick.

[scs787]

Webb cut his false starts down from 8 to 3 last year....Joe Thomas had 4. Not comparing the 2 just pointing it out.

 

Cutler gets blasted for pushing Webb but Webb should have pushed him back? I'm sure the coaching staff and media would have loved that.

 

Yup, 7th round draft picks take time to develop.

[lemonej]

The only reason why Webb is still a Bear is because of Mike Tice who personally worked him out and prematurely installed him into the LOT starting spot before he was ready because the Bears drafted a 1st rd RT(Carimi). You can find a stat to support any point of view but, the eyes of a fan who has been watching football since 1966 say Webb is a worst OT than Dan Jiggetts who was a perrennial backup. Tice stubbornly refused to demote Webb but yanked Carimi out of the lineup after a couple of bad games but Webb,we have to continue to hear cut down on his mistakes last season. That like saying he didn't suck as much. Where his supporters throw up his games against Jared Allen and JJ Watt. How did he play in his last 4 games against Clay Matthews and the game this past season against Aldon Smith showed that he has a long way to go before he is a solid starting OT in the NFL.

 

 

[scs787]

You can cherry pick A LOT more good games than bad ones.

 

 

And those bad games you cherry picked were against 2 of the best sack artists in the league. ~Half the sacks given up to Matthews and Smith were also on other players. Whether it be a stunt inside or them lining up opposite Carimi.

 

Oh and the blocking scheme was still horrible...

 

Here's some comments from Pack fans I saw on reddit

 

It's not as bad as you think, but I think that's because teams actually planned on dealing with him, while the Bears decided that 1v1 was a smart option. I don't remember any games last year that didn't have Matthews getting double teamed or watched.

 

Which is sad, since we'll always remember the plays where matthews beat him; there were a lot of plays where he did a really really good job blocking matthews.

 

Everyone gets beat now and then, and he wasn't helped much by Cutler holding the ball for 9 seconds every play.

[lemonej]

You can cherry pick A LOT more good games than bad ones.

 

 

And those bad games you cherry picked were against 2 of the best sack artists in the league. ~Half the sacks given up to Matthews and Smith were also on other players. Whether it be a stunt inside or them lining up opposite Carimi.

 

Oh and the blocking scheme was still horrible...

 

Here's some comments from Pack fans I saw on reddit

 

Did you or did you not cherry pick 2 of the best sack artists in the league? Allen and Watt.The difference I see is that you won't see Watt for a few years but you may see Matthews and Smith every year with Matthews 2 a year. as long as he is in the NFC North and a negative play here or there can define a season.Just like some of the sacks came via stunt. How many times were the Bears in max protect with 2 man routes versus Allen and Watt who had to play on what was a pretty sloppy field here in Chicago.

[scs787]

I see you ignored the posts from pack fans who talked about how we we're the only team that didn't double team Matthews.

 

Chances are we're not gonna find a guy who will hold Matthews in check 1v1

[balta1701-A]

I see you ignored the posts from pack fans who talked about how we we're the only team that didn't double team Matthews.

 

Chances are we're not gonna find a guy who will hold Matthews in check 1v1

Especially when the LG is looking away from Matthews (so that both inside and outside moves are available).

[bradjock]

The only reason why Webb is still a Bear is because of Mike Tice who personally worked him out and prematurely installed him into the LOT starting spot before he was ready because the Bears drafted a 1st rd RT(Carimi). You can find a stat to support any point of view but, the eyes of a fan who has been watching football since 1966 say Webb is a worst OT than Dan Jiggetts who was a perrennial backup. Tice stubbornly refused to demote Webb but yanked Carimi out of the lineup after a couple of bad games but Webb,we have to continue to hear cut down on his mistakes last season. That like saying he didn't suck as much.

 

That's not true. When you look at the week to week grades, guys like Dan Pompei always had Webb graded out as ok. Not great but not terrible. At the same time, Pompei and others declared Carimi should be benched.

[bradjock]

You're right. It's just you.

 

For his salary, his performance is good. But that's because he's paid next to nothing, so you feel like he's a bargain. It's like buying a car for $200. If it drives off the lot and lasts you a year, you've made a good deal. But that doesn't mean you wouldn't have been better off with a brand new car, or a slightly used car that has been performing well.

 

If the Bears don't end up with a replacement for Webb in either FA, the draft, or if another player on the team wins the job (if actually given a fair shake at the job), then this offseason will be a failure.

 

You've been correct each year you've said the Bears should do more to upgrade the o-line. What you've been wrong about is you can't replace an entire unit in one offseason. It's not feasible.

 

Forgetting what we "should do" (fire the whole damn bunch and start over new) in terms of "feasible" where do we start? With limited cap space and picks, at BEST I'd say we sign one good starter, draft one starter, and draft another guy to develop. Who are the two starters we replace and who are the 3 who you think aren't as bad as the rest?

 

That being said, I swear I asked you the same question last year at this time. I thought we'd sign one guy and draft a guy in round #1 or round #2 . . .

 

 

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

You've been correct each year you've said the Bears should do more to upgrade the o-line. What you've been wrong about is you can't replace an entire unit in one offseason. It's not feasible.

 

Forgetting what we "should do" (fire the whole damn bunch and start over new) in terms of "feasible" where do we start? With limited cap space and picks, at BEST I'd say we sign one good starter, draft one starter, and draft another guy to develop. Who are the two starters we replace and who are the 3 who you think aren't as bad as the rest?

 

That being said, I swear I asked you the same question last year at this time. I thought we'd sign one guy and draft a guy in round #1 or round #2 . . .

You can start by drafting Lane Johnson and the best OG available in round 2 and signing Vollmer.

 

If Johnson is gone, draft Fluker and the best OG available and then sign the best LT on the market.

 

That's 3 right there in either scenario.

[scs787]

You can start by drafting Lane Johnson and the best OG available in round 2 and signing Vollmer.

 

If Johnson is gone, draft Fluker and the best OG available and then sign the best LT on the market.

 

That's 3 right there in either scenario.

 

 

The problem with that is free agency is before the draft so you can't prepare for who's gonna be there. Chances are Johnson will be gone though, the guys who are better than Webb are gonna cost a pretty penny, and if you go OL/OL in the draft then your left with a 4th and 5th round TE/LB in the draft(which I guess isn't that bad but still not ideal).

 

 

I blow my load on Levitre, draft Cooper and a project in the 5th then call it a day.

[jason]

I'm sorry, but I don't give a damn what a Packer fan gas to say about the Bears. Especially when it's not true. The "Jay Cutler held the ball too long"-myth needs to die. He RARELY had enough time to actually hold the ball for what constitutes a long time in the pocket, so the point is moot. If looking for your second read is "long" then maybe it's accurate, because that's about all the time he ever had.

[jason]

You've been correct each year you've said the Bears should do more to upgrade the o-line. What you've been wrong about is you can't replace an entire unit in one offseason. It's not feasible.

 

Forgetting what we "should do" (fire the whole damn bunch and start over new) in terms of "feasible" where do we start? With limited cap space and picks, at BEST I'd say we sign one good starter, draft one starter, and draft another guy to develop. Who are the two starters we replace and who are the 3 who you think aren't as bad as the rest?

 

That being said, I swear I asked you the same question last year at this time. I thought we'd sign one guy and draft a guy in round #1 or round #2 . . .

 

Yeah, but its ignored year after year after year. But THOSE guys were the "experts."

 

What we should do? Who really knows. But here's what I'd love:

1) Tell Carimi the LT job is his to lose. I really think he wasn't as bad as it seemed, but he lost confidence and the injury affected him. This would be a make or break move. But the team can't just toss out their first rounder just because Tice was shit as an OL coach and Lovie never cared to improve the position.

2) Sign Levitre. He starts at LG, and he helps Carimi.

3) Draft Garza's eventual replacement at Center this year. Jones, Schwenke, either would be fine.

4) Draft the best OL available in the first. If we get lucky and one of the LTs slip, then scratch #1 and hand Carimi the starting RT job to lose. If not, it's probably the kid from NC. He starts day one (assuming he beats out Louis).

 

That's how it happens. A full out attack in one year. If Louis or the rookie OG is a completely lost cause, you move Garza back out to his original position OG, and hand the starting C role to the rookie. That way you have support on either side of the rookie.

[jason]

The problem with that is free agency is before the draft so you can't prepare for who's gonna be there. Chances are Johnson will be gone though, the guys who are better than Webb are gonna cost a pretty penny, and if you go OL/OL in the draft then your left with a 4th and 5th round TE/LB in the draft(which I guess isn't that bad but still not ideal).

 

 

I blow my load on Levitre, draft Cooper and a project in the 5th then call it a day.

 

A fourth or fifth rd TE is plenty. I've been telling you guys for years that it doesn't matter who the skill position players are if Cutler is on his ass all game. Give Cutler time, and a late rd TE gets 50 catches.

 

Levitre and Cooper is a start, but if say Barrett Jones is there late second (and he's not actually falling like a rock across the NFL), you pull the trigger.

 

The offense will never improve much as long as the OL is in turmoil.

[scs787]

I highlighted the things in the posts that matter. The holding onto the ball part is judgmental, but the fact that we were the only team stupid enough to play Matthews 1v1 is not. They see him play all year and see him get double teamed every game....

 

Carimi @ LT?? Dear Lord! You've gotta be kidding me....Right? All this time bashing Webb and you want Gabe Carimi at LT???

 

Webb+Levitre>Carimi+Levitre

 

So you want Carimi-Levitre-Garza-Cooper-?? Webb?? Scott??

 

I'm sorry but that honestly sounds worse to me.

[Stinger226]

A fourth or fifth rd TE is plenty. I've been telling you guys for years that it doesn't matter who the skill position players are if Cutler is on his ass all game. Give Cutler time, and a late rd TE gets 50 catches.

 

Levitre and Cooper is a start, but if say Barrett Jones is there late second (and he's not actually falling like a rock across the NFL), you pull the trigger.

 

The offense will never improve much as long as the OL is in turmoil.

I agree, we need to fix the OL, but handing the LT job to Carmi could be a disaster.He hasnt proved anything yet. We need someone to compete with the LT spot, and move Webb to RT, or retain Scott and have them battle for the job. I thiink we get a OG draft pick for LG and Copper should be there. We need to bring someone in to compete for LT in FAgency and see it to be a second tier guy. We need options if our crap OL incumbents stay shitty. A OG and LT and resign Louis and Scott. That is the best I think we can do without dreaming.

[bradjock]

I agree with most of what you said but Carimi at LT seems like a stretch. The "experts" say he's best suited at RT. He was good at run blocking but so bad at pass blocking he was benched. The new coaching staff talked about Carimi's versatility. That's not a compliment IMO. To me that's like saying, "we've got 2 starting quarterbacks" when in reality you don't have one. Chris Williams could play anywhere . . . yet he couldn't play anywhere. I'm not ready to give up on Carimi but he needs to earn his position.

 

As for the TE, it depends on how we want to utilize the position. Matt Spaeth is a good blocker and he didn't wet himself when the ball came in his direction. He's never going to stretch the field but he has value. Evan Rodriguez is in the mix.

 

 

 

Yeah, but its ignored year after year after year. But THOSE guys were the "experts."

 

What we should do? Who really knows. But here's what I'd love:

1) Tell Carimi the LT job is his to lose. I really think he wasn't as bad as it seemed, but he lost confidence and the injury affected him. This would be a make or break move. But the team can't just toss out their first rounder just because Tice was shit as an OL coach and Lovie never cared to improve the position.

2) Sign Levitre. He starts at LG, and he helps Carimi.

3) Draft Garza's eventual replacement at Center this year. Jones, Schwenke, either would be fine.

4) Draft the best OL available in the first. If we get lucky and one of the LTs slip, then scratch #1 and hand Carimi the starting RT job to lose. If not, it's probably the kid from NC. He starts day one (assuming he beats out Louis).

 

That's how it happens. A full out attack in one year. If Louis or the rookie OG is a completely lost cause, you move Garza back out to his original position OG, and hand the starting C role to the rookie. That way you have support on either side of the rookie.