Bears options at T in FA

[bowlingtwig]

The Saints have Bushrod who was ranked 10 slots lower in pass protection than JWebb and Zach Strief who was a 7th round draft pick. Carimi is up in the air as I've said, if he's stronger and improves in pass blocking he's a perfect RT. You're assuming Webb doesn't improve like he's done the last 3 years aren't you? You're assuming Carimi won't come into the season stronger and thus potentially better...It goes both ways sir, it's the offseaon, everything is an assumption.

I've made no assumptions on carimi. Dude is a complete wild card. I have no clue what to think of him. With webb he has improved only marginally each yr and my whole point is i want someone that's better than webb is currently. That's not assuming nothing its called facts. U can't even pretend he's good and i want good

[scs787]

I've made no assumptions on carimi. Dude is a complete wild card. I have no clue what to think of him. With webb he has improved only marginally each yr and my whole point is i want someone that's better than webb is currently. That's not assuming nothing its called facts. U can't even pretend he's good and i want good

 

 

And I've said numerous times thats I'm ok with bringing in Albert, or another OT to compete. So in a way I agree with you. If they can get Albert, awesome. If they bring in a guy like King Dunlap and he outplays Webb, great. If they take a OT in the draft and he's better than Webb, fantastic. All I'm saying is I'm ok with Webb because I see a player who is 24 and developing into a fine LT.

 

And yes it is assuming, that's all we can do right now...I'm assuming he will develop more and you're assuming he won't.

[bowlingtwig]

And I've said numerous times thats I'm ok with bringing in Albert, or another OT to compete. So in a way I agree with you. If they can get Albert, awesome. If they bring in a guy like King Dunlap and he outplays Webb, great. If they take a OT in the draft and he's better than Webb, fantastic. All I'm saying is I'm ok with Webb because I see a player who is 24 and developing into a fine LT.

 

And yes it is assuming, that's all we can do right now...I'm assuming he will develop more and you're assuming he won't.

I've never said he won't develop more. Difference is we have 2 completely different ideas of where we think he can get. Personally i dont think he's any good and i dont see him developing into a fine LT when he continues to suck at this point

[scs787]

I've never said he won't develop more. Difference is we have 2 completely different ideas of where we think he can get. Personally i dont think he's any good and i dont see him developing into a fine LT when he continues to suck at this point

 

 

Relegating him to the bench would mean no more developing to me. At least development visible to the public or developing against NFL defenses.

 

Right now I view him as an average LT who can be above average with some more coaching and a better situation around him. But yes, we both have 2 different opinions on this so this discussion will never end. Sadly there is no other news to talk about so this fun may linger on longer than it should.

[bowlingtwig]

Relegating him to the bench would mean no more developing to me. At least development visible to the public or developing against NFL defenses.

 

Right now I view him as an average LT who can be above average with some more coaching and a better situation around him. But yes, we both have 2 different opinions on this so this discussion will never end. Sadly there is no other news to talk about so this fun may linger on longer than it should.

In my mind average LTs dont give up 9 sacks in there best yr

[AZ54]

Relegating him to the bench would mean no more developing to me. At least development visible to the public or developing against NFL defenses.

 

Right now I view him as an average LT who can be above average with some more coaching and a better situation around him. But yes, we both have 2 different opinions on this so this discussion will never end. Sadly there is no other news to talk about so this fun may linger on longer than it should.

 

I don't see him as average....as Jason says he's too inconsistent... like most of our Oline. You just can't completely blow a block once in awhile because then the QB can't count on you. If it consistently took him 3 sec to get beat then Cutler can have that clock in his head. Then of course he'd be average.

[scs787]

In my mind average LTs dont give up 9 sacks in there best yr

 

 

For what it's worth I believe that 9 number is wrong, profootballweekly is the only place I see that number, everywhere else says 7. And a large portion of those came in 3 games which he played bad but also wasn't set up for success either. You simply can't let any LT in the league go 1v1 against Matthews or Aldon Smith. Employing a FB and having him spy Matthews or force him out in pass coverage would be a pretty good plan of attack next year.

 

Biggs has his sack number at 7 in his article he posted last night....An article that I had already made note of here in comparing Webb with Bushrod that got me murdered here.

 

Bushrod 56th in pass blocking, 29th in run blocking. He allowed 4 sacks, 8 QB hits and 46 QB hurries (the second-most in the NFL.

 

Webb was 42nd in pass blocking, 43rd in run blocking. He allowed 7 sacks, 5 QB hits and 29 QB hurries.

[jason]

For what it's worth I believe that 9 number is wrong, profootballweekly is the only place I see that number, everywhere else says 7. And a large portion of those came in 3 games which he played bad but also wasn't set up for success either. You simply can't let any LT in the league go 1v1 against Matthews or Aldon Smith. Employing a FB and having him spy Matthews would be a pretty good plan of attack next year.

 

Biggs has his sack number at 7 in his article he posted last night....An article that I had already made note of here in comparing Webb with Bushrod that got me murdered here.

 

The reason you got murdered is because the statistics are far too simplistic for a variety of reasons, the first two of which are frequency and severity.

 

The latter is not easy to quantify, but what constitutes a hurry, hit, or sack? The first two items are not as easily defined as going into the stat book for sacks and just summing the totals. Similarly, the severity of all three matters. Does the hurry come on 3rd and 8, in the 4th quarter, while the Bears are driving for the tie? Does the hit jar a pass, hurt the QB or otherwise make him tentative? Does the sack do the same?

 

As for frequency, that's easy enough. Take the number of dropbacks for each team, divide each stat into that number. Add the percentages. Webb screws up 9.45% of the time. Bushrod is 8.66%. I'd say once you factor in severity, penalties (he's a leader in this department), and a difference of opinion on a variety of plays, Webb is probably closer to screwing up at least 15-20% of the time. Bushrod's number probably stays close to 10% or the Saints offense wouldn't have been nearly as prolific.

 

Also, FYI, the Saints QBs dropped back 200+ more times than the Bears' QBs. If Cutler dropped back an extra 200 times last year we'd be spending the entire offseason talking about his recovery from surgery and whether the Bears need to reach for a QB in the first round.

['TD']

The reason you got murdered is because the statistics are far too simplistic for a variety of reasons, the first two of which are frequency and severity.

 

The latter is not easy to quantify, but what constitutes a hurry, hit, or sack? The first two items are not as easily defined as going into the stat book for sacks and just summing the totals. Similarly, the severity of all three matters. Does the hurry come on 3rd and 8, in the 4th quarter, while the Bears are driving for the tie? Does the hit jar a pass, hurt the QB or otherwise make him tentative? Does the sack do the same?

 

As for frequency, that's easy enough. Take the number of dropbacks for each team, divide each stat into that number. Add the percentages. Webb screws up 9.45% of the time. Bushrod is 8.66%. I'd say once you factor in severity, penalties (he's a leader in this department), and a difference of opinion on a variety of plays, Webb is probably closer to screwing up at least 15-20% of the time. Bushrod's number probably stays close to 10% or the Saints offense wouldn't have been nearly as prolific.

 

Also, FYI, the Saints QBs dropped back 200+ more times than the Bears' QBs. If Cutler dropped back an extra 200 times last year we'd be spending the entire offseason about his recovery from surgery and whether the Bears need to reach for a QB in the first round.

There's one thing the numbers don't show that I don't think has been brought up yet. If it has, my bad. Webb had these stats in a very dumbed down and limited Bears offense, maximized to get rid of the ball quick.

 

Think of every play there was 2 TE's, RB's staying back to block and so on. How many times could the Bears take 7 step drops or even 5? To be a 30th ranked T or whatever, and do it in a system that is so limited and optimized just to make it easier for you, then being in the middle is bad.

 

The Saints on the other hand, from what I could see, could do whatever they wanted passing. Granted I don't watch them as much, but the Bears were still limited and Webb was bad.

[scs787]

The reason you got murdered is because the statistics are far too simplistic for a variety of reasons, the first two of which are frequency and severity.

 

The latter is not easy to quantify, but what constitutes a hurry, hit, or sack? The first two items are not as easily defined as going into the stat book for sacks and just summing the totals. Similarly, the severity of all three matters. Does the hurry come on 3rd and 8, in the 4th quarter, while the Bears are driving for the tie? Does the hit jar a pass, hurt the QB or otherwise make him tentative? Does the sack do the same?

 

As for frequency, that's easy enough. Take the number of dropbacks for each team, divide each stat into that number. Add the percentages. Webb screws up 9.45% of the time. Bushrod is 8.66%. I'd say once you factor in severity, penalties (he's a leader in this department), and a difference of opinion on a variety of plays, Webb is probably closer to screwing up at least 15-20% of the time. Bushrod's number probably stays close to 10% or the Saints offense wouldn't have been nearly as prolific.

 

Also, FYI, the Saints QBs dropped back 200+ more times than the Bears' QBs. If Cutler dropped back an extra 200 times last year we'd be spending the entire offseason about his recovery from surgery and whether the Bears need to reach for a QB in the first round.

 

Webb had 1 more penalty than Bushrod.

 

I'd also assume the metrics they use are the same for every player so whether they're a good way to judge them or not the numbers should be consistent. The "difference of opinion" opinion in your argument is also pretty silly, jumping Webb up 5-10% while only bumping Bushrod ~2% isn't really a great line of thinking.

 

The thing about Bushrod, past the stats, is I've seen several Saints fans say he rides the coattails of his LG with a ton of help....How do you think he would have looked next to the shit we had their last year? How do you think Webb would have looked next to Ben Grubbs, or Carl Nicks before him? I'd say those percentages you presented would change a good deal. Now I know unless we grab Levitre we're probably not gonna get a guy that's on Grubbs or Nicks level but there are a lot of guys in this draft that would be huge upgrades over the shit we had there last year.

 

 

 

 

 

[jason]

Webb had 1 more penalty than Bushrod.

 

I'd also assume the metrics they use are the same for every player so whether they're a good way to judge them or not the numbers should be consistent. The "difference of opinion" opinion in your argument is also pretty silly, jumping Webb up 5-10% while only bumping Bushrod ~2% isn't really a great line of thinking.

 

The thing about Bushrod, past the stats, is I've seen several Saints fans say he rides the coattails of his LG with a ton of help....How do you think he would have looked next to the shit we had their last year? How do you think Webb would have looked next to Ben Grubbs, or Carl Nicks before him? I'd say those percentages you presented would change a good deal. Now I know unless we grab Levitre we're probably not gonna get a guy that's on Grubbs or Nicks level but there are a lot of guys in this draft that would be huge upgrades over the shit we had there last year.

 

I couldn't find Webb's penalty stats, and I wasn't about to crunch the numbers on when they happened. Bushrod either.

 

As for the difference of opinion, it's only based on the fact that the Bears' offense and OL sucked, and the Saints offense and OL was great. That leads me to believe while the metrics used were close to the same, there were a far greater number of plays for the Bears that could be debated.

[scs787]

There's one thing the numbers don't show that I don't think has been brought up yet. If it has, my bad. Webb had these stats in a very dumbed down and limited Bears offense, maximized to get rid of the ball quick.

 

Think of every play there was 2 TE's, RB's staying back to block and so on. How many times could the Bears take 7 step drops or even 5? To be a 30th ranked T or whatever, and do it in a system that is so limited and optimized just to make it easier for you, then being in the middle is bad.

 

The Saints on the other hand, from what I could see, could do whatever they wanted passing. Granted I don't watch them as much, but the Bears were still limited and Webb was bad.

 

 

This isn't really the case at all. Maximized to get the ball out quick?? Was that really the case?

 

Keeping TEs and RBs in doesn't maximize getting the ball out quickly. When you're only putting 3 guys out as receivers it basically means all 3 can be double teamed which is not the way to get the ball quicker.

 

I think the better strategy is to actually put those guys out as receivers. If you throw out 5 receivers, whether it be 3 WR/1 TE/1RB or 2WR/1TE/1RB/1FB it forces the defense to go single coverage on a few receivers which the bears can take advantage of in a quicker fashion. Deploying 5 receivers means if they wanna double Marshall and still bring 5 guys in pressure then there's gonna be 4 other receivers in single coverage. With a big guy like Jeffery and hopefully a big TE like Escobar those guys can beat single coverage.

 

 

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

I'm still waiting for an answer on why if G's easily make T's better teams don't let their great T's walk and just sign great G's to put next to their mediocre T's...

[jason]

There's one thing the numbers don't show that I don't think has been brought up yet. If it has, my bad. Webb had these stats in a very dumbed down and limited Bears offense, maximized to get rid of the ball quick.

 

Think of every play there was 2 TE's, RB's staying back to block and so on. How many times could the Bears take 7 step drops or even 5? To be a 30th ranked T or whatever, and do it in a system that is so limited and optimized just to make it easier for you, then being in the middle is bad.

 

The Saints on the other hand, from what I could see, could do whatever they wanted passing. Granted I don't watch them as much, but the Bears were still limited and Webb was bad.

 

VERY good points. I am not inclined to do the research, but I'm willing to bet the percentage of 3/5/7-step drops for each team would point to more deep drops for the Saints (percentage-wise), and less for the Bears simply because the Bears could almost never actually execute a play requiring a 7-step drop.

[jason]

This isn't really the case at all. Maximized to get the ball out quick?? Was that really the case?

 

Keeping TEs and RBs in doesn't maximize getting the ball out quickly. When you're only putting 3 guys out as receivers it basically means all 3 can be double teamed which is not the way to get the ball quicker.

 

I think the better strategy is to actually put those guys out as receivers. If you throw out 5 receivers, whether it be 3 WR/1 TE/1RB or 2WR/1TE/1RB/1FB it forces the defense to go single coverage on a few receivers which the bears can take advantage of in a quicker fashion. Deploying 5 receivers means if they wanna double Marshall and still bring 5 guys in pressure then there's gonna be 4 other receivers in single coverage. With a big guy like Jeffery and hopefully a big TE like Escobar those guys can beat single coverage.

 

Yes, that's the case. Out of necessity. Although, maximized might be a bad word considering how poorly the Bears offense did.

 

The Bears simply didn't have a ton of deep drops because they had to make sure Cutler didn't get murdered. You probably couldn't look through the entire year's game film and find more than about 20 such plays (i.e. 7-step drops without pressure); I'd reckon. It simply wasn't possible because Cutler rarely had time to make a second read, much less drop back 7-steps. Brees, on the other hand, dropped back VERY frequently. It's not even difficult to find plays displaying this concept. Although, there is a bit of apples/oranges here because Brees often lined up in the pistol and then dropped back another 3 or 5 steps. Either way, he had a ridiculously greater amount of time in pocket than Cutler.

[scs787]

Yes, that's the case. Out of necessity. Although, maximized might be a bad word considering how poorly the Bears offense did.

 

The Bears simply didn't have a ton of deep drops because they had to make sure Cutler didn't get murdered. You probably couldn't look through the entire year's game film and find more than about 20 such plays (i.e. 7-step drops without pressure); I'd reckon. It simply wasn't possible because Cutler rarely had time to make a second read, much less drop back 7-steps. Brees, on the other hand, dropped back VERY frequently. It's not even difficult to find plays displaying this concept. Although, there is a bit of apples/oranges here because Brees often lined up in the pistol and then dropped back another 3 or 5 steps. Either way, he had a ridiculously greater amount of time in pocket than Cutler.

 

And a WCO usually doesn't call for 7 step drops so whether or not they have the time is not needed.

 

The thing I like about the WCO, if utilized how I read it, you put 3 receivers on one side of the field in the same area just at varying depths so it's much quicker to find your 2nd and 3rd reads. Have your RB or TE work the shallow are, your slot guy work the middle, then Marshall or Jeffery work over top. I'm not sure how often the Bears did something like this but chances are slim they did it a lot.

 

Him having a ridiculously greater amount of time in the pocket is also false and actually quite the opposite

 

Snaps Time to Throw

Drew Brees NO 357 2.67

 

Jay Cutler CHI 278 2.74

 

Then there's time till sack, which tells you how long he held onto the ball.

 

Jay Cutler CHI 278 4.01

 

Drew BreesNO 357 2.85

 

But hey its PFF stats, those blokes don't know how to us a stopwatch!

[balta1701-A]

Chiefs have reached a multi-year deal with WR Bowe.

 

This could open them up to using the Franchise Tag on Albert.

[bowlingtwig]

And a WCO usually doesn't call for 7 step drops so whether or not they have the time is not needed.

 

The thing I like about the WCO, if utilized how I read it, you put 3 receivers on one side of the field in the same area just at varying depths so it's much quicker to find your 2nd and 3rd reads. Have your RB or TE work the shallow are, your slot guy work the middle, then Marshall or Jeffery work over top. I'm not sure how often the Bears did something like this but chances are slim they did it a lot.

 

Him having a ridiculously greater amount of time in the pocket is also false and actually quite the opposite

 

Snaps Time to Throw

Drew Brees NO 357 2.67

 

Jay Cutler CHI 278 2.74

 

Then there's time till sack, which tells you how long he held onto the ball.

 

Jay Cutler CHI 278 4.01

 

Drew BreesNO 357 2.85

 

But hey its PFF stats, those blokes don't know how to us a stopwatch!

 

Hell lets just resign webb to that monster deal sense he's so great

 

[scs787]

Hell lets just resign webb to that monster deal sense he's so great

 

Once again, just like Az pointed out, you're reading to far into this. Have I ever called Webb great? Never. Just because I'm expressing why and how I think he can be more successful next year doesn't mean I think he's great.

 

 

[bowlingtwig]

Once again, just like Az pointed out, you're reading to far into this. Have I ever called Webb great? Never. Just because I'm expressing why and how I think he can be more successful next year doesn't mean I think he's great.

Your constantly saying how comparable webb is to Albert and others and have also said u think he would be very good nxt to a stud LG. Doesn'ttake a genius to read all your posts about webb and think that if ppl were smart they should lock him up long term before he becomes amazing. Then again we are all waiting for u to answer brianbears question. Instead of skipping over it

[scs787]

I put that line in there specifically to address your previous comments. Notice the wasn't the only one to say it? part....ya that was just for you buddy.

 

How many teams run that inside zone scheme?? All I know is the Saints have put more emphasis on the interior line, their tackles haven't been anything special, and yet they still have been a top 5 OL the past 5 years.

 

Brian Billeck made note of the Saints inside out blocking during the combine, I wish I could remember the quote but it made a lot of sense, I know it went right along with the line of thinking here.

 

 

That was my response to Brians question. Their 2 guards are ranked 3rd and 6th in the NFL in average salaries for Guards...While their tackles are a 7th round pick and a guy who has been one of the worst LTs as far as pass protection in the league the past 2 years. Bushrods 2011 year was comparable to Webbs 2012 year yet instead of spending money on a LT they spent 7M on Ben Grubbs.

 

I said 1 billion times that Albert is better right now. I just pointed out that the article that started this thread was noting that Albert had 96 pressures over a 3 year period like it was a good thing and that fact that if Webb golds steady around the 29 pressures he gave up this year he would have the 96 number beat.....It's more about the development of the 2 players than it is who they are...I said a number of times that I'll take 2012 Albert over 2012 Webb.

 

I've never once said he'll be great or amazing, you're reading to far into it, I believe the words I've used countless times is above average, and maybe even good....And you can certainly win with above average.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

That was my response to Brians question. Their 2 guards are ranked 3rd and 6th in the NFL in average salaries for Guards...While their tackles are a 7th round pick and a guy who has been one of the worst LTs as far as pass protection in the league the past 2 years. Bushrods 2011 year was comparable to Webbs 2012 year yet instead of spending money on a LT they spent 7M on Ben Grubbs.

 

I said 1 billion times that Albert is better right now. I just pointed out that the article that started this thread was noting that Albert had 96 pressures over a 3 year period like it was a good thing and that fact that if Webb golds steady around the 29 pressures he gave up this year he would have the 96 number beat.....It's more about the development of the 2 players than it is who they are...I said a number of times that I'll take 2012 Albert over 2012 Webb.

 

I've never once said he'll be great or amazing, you're reading to far into it, I believe the words I've used countless times is above average, and maybe even good....And you can certainly win with above average.

I think he means this question:

 

I'm still waiting for an answer on why if G's easily make T's better teams don't let their great T's walk and just sign great G's to put next to their mediocre T's...

[scs787]

Yes, and that was my answer to it.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Yes, and that was my answer to it.

You did not answer why NFL teams don't all try to copy this easy scheme, no. You're answer is simply- well, the Saints did pay their G's more than their T's. Ok, that's fine, but why don't ALL teams do this? It would be easier on their cap situations. If this was the case, the Broncos could trade Clady for a 4th round pick, best case scenario.

[scs787]

You did not answer why NFL teams don't all try to copy this easy scheme, no. You're answer is simply- well, the Saints did pay their G's more than their T's. Ok, that's fine, but why don't ALL teams do this? It would be easier on their cap situations. If this was the case, the Broncos could trade Clady for a 4th round pick, best case scenario.

 

 

It's a valid question and I don't know the answer but it's hard to a say a better LG won't improve your LT. I'm not saying it's the only attribute that will make Webb better, there are many other reasons that I highlighted as to why I think his play will be elevated.

 

All I know is it's what the Saints have done the last 5 years and they have mad it work. With Kromer coming over from the Saints it's hard to imagine they won't put emphasis on the guard spots over the Tackle positions.