jason Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 And a WCO usually doesn't call for 7 step drops so whether or not they have the time is not needed. The thing I like about the WCO, if utilized how I read it, you put 3 receivers on one side of the field in the same area just at varying depths so it's much quicker to find your 2nd and 3rd reads. Have your RB or TE work the shallow are, your slot guy work the middle, then Marshall or Jeffery work over top. I'm not sure how often the Bears did something like this but chances are slim they did it a lot. Him having a ridiculously greater amount of time in the pocket is also false and actually quite the opposite Snaps Time to Throw Drew Brees NO 357 2.67 Jay Cutler CHI 278 2.74 Then there's time till sack, which tells you how long he held onto the ball. Jay Cutler CHI 278 4.01 Drew BreesNO 357 2.85 But hey its PFF stats, those blokes don't know how to us a stopwatch! It isn't that they don't know how to use a stopwatch. It's that they make completely ridiculous stats like the one you posted. Think it through... West coast offense + 200 more passes than the Bears + Pistol formation integration + quicker release from QB = a much lower number in the "Time to Throw" category. It's a misleading stat for a variety of reasons. Even simple mathematics says their number would lessen with more snaps in a WCO. Find me the following three stats and then we can talk: 1) Time to throw when the QB takes a 3-step drop 2) Time to throw when the QB takes a 5-step drop 3) Time to throw when the QB takes a 7-step drop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 That was my response to Brians question. Their 2 guards are ranked 3rd and 6th in the NFL in average salaries for Guards...While their tackles are a 7th round pick and a guy who has been one of the worst LTs as far as pass protection in the league the past 2 years. Bushrods 2011 year was comparable to Webbs 2012 year yet instead of spending money on a LT they spent 7M on Ben Grubbs. I said 1 billion times that Albert is better right now. I just pointed out that the article that started this thread was noting that Albert had 96 pressures over a 3 year period like it was a good thing and that fact that if Webb golds steady around the 29 pressures he gave up this year he would have the 96 number beat.....It's more about the development of the 2 players than it is who they are...I said a number of times that I'll take 2012 Albert over 2012 Webb. I've never once said he'll be great or amazing, you're reading to far into it, I believe the words I've used countless times is above average, and maybe even good....And you can certainly win with above average. According to PFF. You say it like the statement is fact, when, it obviously is not. Otherwise people would be talking about Webb being as good as Bushrod, which, aside from you and Webb's momma, they aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 It isn't that they don't know how to use a stopwatch. It's that they make completely ridiculous stats like the one you posted. Think it through... West coast offense + 200 more passes than the Bears + Pistol formation integration + quicker release from QB = a much lower number in the "Time to Throw" category. It's a misleading stat for a variety of reasons. Even simple mathematics says their number would lessen with more snaps in a WCO. Find me the following three stats and then we can talk: 1) Time to throw when the QB takes a 3-step drop 2) Time to throw when the QB takes a 5-step drop 3) Time to throw when the QB takes a 7-step drop So what your saying is if the Bears do all those things the number will lower? Brees had .07 more seconds time to throw, if Jay had .07 sec to throw he'd have had the 9th most time to throw. There are no such stats. According to PFF. You say it like the statement is fact, when, it obviously is not. Otherwise people would be talking about Webb being as good as Bushrod, which, aside from you and Webb's momma, they aren't. No, saying they're comparable doesn't mean it's a fact. I'm saying there's comparables there. It may just be one or 2 stats but they're there. Snaps per pressures was 20v21, I think that's a pretty telling figure for offensive lineman. Plus the penalty numbers are 6v7. Biggs brought it up as well, and there are other articles out there making the comparison....Who outside of Chicago would make that comparison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 So what your saying is if the Bears do all those things the number will lower? Brees had .07 more seconds time to throw, if Jay had .07 sec to throw he'd have had the 9th most time to throw. There are no such stats. Statistically speaking, yes, it would help the Bears to do all those things. And you just can't add .07 to a statistic that is already proven lacking to come up with an equally lacking statistic. You get far too hung up on these PFF stats. I admire what they're trying to do, but most of what they do leaves a whole lot to be desired. No, saying they're comparable doesn't mean it's a fact. I'm saying there's comparables there. It may just be one or 2 stats but they're there. Snaps per pressures was 20v21, I think that's a pretty telling figure for offensive lineman. Plus the penalty numbers are 6v7. Biggs brought it up as well, and there are other articles out there making the comparison....Who outside of Chicago would make that comparison? And I'm saying the stats you keep using for comparison are not nearly explanatory enough to actually be used for comparison. It's like saying I took 30 minutes to drive to work today, and you took 10 minutes, yet nothing about route, congestion, car type, construction, time of day, etc., is factored in. Simply because you drove for 20 less minutes doesn't mean you're a faster or better driver, or that you took a better route. There are a ton of extra details that are not explored, and that is the exact methodology of the PFF stats: incomplete data attempting to paint a complete picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 What are your thoughts on this exert on Midwayillustrated.com ...Granted Idk much about Brett Solesky but he seems to know his Bears (Does a Bears website, magazine, and radio show) Even beyond the metrics kept by the folks at ProFootballFocus the film shows how comfortable J'Marcus Webb has become as the team's starter. Of Webb's seven sacks allowed on the season two were not his fault and he should not have been faulted for. One of the sacks allowed against the Packers goes against Jay Cutler for allowing a coverage sack. Webb is dinged for the sack, despite doing his job on the play. Webb's other sack allowed he doesn't everything he is supposed to do, he pushes DeMarcus Ware beyond to pocket, beyond 180 degrees around the pocket. As pressure begins to break down around Cutler, Ware is able to step up and get to Cutler giving up the sack. As an offensive tackle if the rusher wants to take a strong up the field speed rush to sack the quarterback you essentially mirror him up the field and beyond the pocket. The point is not to give up inside leverage for a counter move, Webb does what he's supposed to do on the play. Those are two sacks that are on Cutler or are created by other pressure in the pocket. That takes Webb's allowed sack total down to five from seven on the season. Five legitimate sacks allowed do to fundamental break downs on Webb's part. Inexcusable, but the fact that Webb was able to shave a total of seven sacks on his total allowed over the last few seasons is a significant improvement. Here's a guy who says he looked at the film and still saw the improvement that I am talking about. I honestly have taken too many hits to the head to remember exactly how Webb performed and don't have the games recorded but I do seem to remember not hearing his name that much or yelling at the screen that much this past year and the only stats on the OL presented to me on the interwebs back that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 What are your thoughts on this exert on Midwayillustrated.com ...Granted Idk much about Brett Solesky but he seems to know his Bears (Does a Bears website, magazine, and radio show) Here's a guy who says he looked at the film and still saw the improvement that I am talking about. I honestly have taken too many hits to the head to remember exactly how Webb performed and don't have the games recorded but I do seem to remember not hearing his name that much or yelling at the screen that much this past year and the only stats on the OL presented to me on the interwebs back that up. I recorded all the Bear games this year and Webb did get better, but being better doesnt make you good. (When are you going to start the M. Webb fan club) sounds like you have another prospect for the club. Keep looking I am sure you can find a couple more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 I recorded all the Bear games this year and Webb did get better, but being better doesnt make you good. (When are you going to start the M. Webb fan club) sounds like you have another prospect for the club. Keep looking I am sure you can find a couple more. I've said quite a few times that I think he's average with the potential to be above average/good next year....Quite putting words like good or amazing in my mouth. Once again you're all looking to far into my words. Did you read the actual exert or did you just wanna be a smart ass cause thats sooooo cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 I've said quite a few times that I think he's average with the potential to be above average/good next year....Quite putting words like good or amazing in my mouth. Once again you're all looking to far into my words. Did you read the actual exert or did you just wanna be a smart ass cause thats sooooo cool. Your probably right, I dont remember you saying he was good, but with your support for him, I get the impression you think he is. I need to refer to AZ54 post and quit commenting on yours, he put it best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 What are your thoughts on this exert on Midwayillustrated.com ...Granted Idk much about Brett Solesky but he seems to know his Bears (Does a Bears website, magazine, and radio show) Here's a guy who says he looked at the film and still saw the improvement that I am talking about. I honestly have taken too many hits to the head to remember exactly how Webb performed and don't have the games recorded but I do seem to remember not hearing his name that much or yelling at the screen that much this past year and the only stats on the OL presented to me on the interwebs back that up. I didn't record the games. I wish I had. But I did watch every single game more than once. The second time was devoted to OL play. There is no doubt Webb matured and improved, but he was still bad. No PFF stat can convince me otherwise. And all the explanations for why/how Webb didn't really do that poorly, because of play x or play y, could just as easily be pushed the other way. For every reason why Webb shouldn't be credited with a sack, hurry, etc., I'm sure there are multiple reasons why Webb should be credited with one but currently isn't. That's why it's always eye of the beholder on things like this. Even if you try to talk about specific plays it's difficult because most people don't want to put the time into watching the game with a keen eye on specific players on the OL, and then understand what's going on in that protection scheme. We had a long discussion about this in the preseason, and I still believe a play in which nothing negative happens can be used as a negative against a player (i.e. Webb gets destroyed but the play just happens to be a sweep to the right side). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 I've said quite a few times that I think he's average with the potential to be above average/good next year....Quite putting words like good or amazing in my mouth. Once again you're all looking to far into my words. Did you read the actual exert or did you just wanna be a smart ass cause thats sooooo cool. It's ok u think he's average with possibility to be good. You point out PFF like its the be all end all and they had him listed as slightly below avg. U assume he's gonna become good but couldn't we also assume with new coaching its possible for him to take a step backwards instead new coaching means new playbook and new concepts. U have admitted he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer so a new staff could actually stunt his growth. We see this all the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Your probably right, I dont remember you saying he was good, but with your support for him, I get the impression you think he is. I need to refer to AZ54 post and quit commenting on yours, he put it best. Yes, please to because this shit is getting old...i never said he was good last year and when you and twig say the shit you do it gets highly annoying. i litterally have to point out in evetyone of my posts that I still think he was an average player yet you 2 insist on blowing it out of proportion. I love to argue as you can tell but when it's the same shit over and over it gets highly annoying. It's ok u think he's average with possibility to be good. You point out PFF like its the be all end all and they had him listed as slightly below avg. U assume he's gonna become good but couldn't we also assume with new coaching its possible for him to take a step backwards instead new coaching means new playbook and new concepts. U have admitted he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer so a new staff could actually stunt his growth. We see this all the time I use PFF to make comparisons to players you guys view as good, that's all...He was literally one good grade away from average, a better game plan against guys like Matthews and Smith give him that average grade and probably a notch above average. You simply can not defend Clay Matthews 1v1 PERIOD. If you look at it that way, sure, it goes both ways. He has improved though so that tells me he can indeed learn so I don't think all is lost and with the way Kromer is talked about he sounds like a solid teacher who can probably get across to Webb. The WCO alone is gonna help the OL, even Jason just agreed to that. Adding a LG will make him better, another thing Jason has agreed with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Yes, please to because this shit is getting old...i never said he was good last year and when you and twig say the shit you do it gets highly annoying. i litterally have to point out in evetyone of my posts that I still think he was an average player yet you 2 insist on blowing it out of proportion. I love to argue as you can tell but when it's the same shit over and over it gets highly annoying. I use PFF to make comparisons to players you guys view as good, that's all...He was literally one good grade away from average, a better game plan against guys like Matthews and Smith give him that average grade and probably a notch above average. You simply can not defend Clay Matthews 1v1 PERIOD. If you look at it that way, sure, it goes both ways. He has improved though so that tells me he can indeed learn so I don't think all is lost and with the way Kromer is talked about he sounds like a solid teacher who can probably get across to Webb. The WCO alone is gonna help the OL, even Jason just agreed to that. Adding a LG will make him better, another thing Jason has agreed with. [/quote. U are aware when we hired tice he was considered 1 of the best OL coaches in the NFL. And before u spout that crap how his lines sucked up there trying doing the research. I have for the years he was there OL coach(97-01) those lines were quite good. At least 2 pro bowlers every yr except in 01 when he had 1. But i know u will find away to diminish those facts. It is what your good at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Yes, please to because this shit is getting old...i never said he was good last year and when you and twig say the shit you do it gets highly annoying. i litterally have to point out in evetyone of my posts that I still think he was an average player yet you 2 insist on blowing it out of proportion. I love to argue as you can tell but when it's the same shit over and over it gets highly annoying. I use PFF to make comparisons to players you guys view as good, that's all...He was literally one good grade away from average, a better game plan against guys like Matthews and Smith give him that average grade and probably a notch above average. You simply can not defend Clay Matthews 1v1 PERIOD. If you look at it that way, sure, it goes both ways. He has improved though so that tells me he can indeed learn so I don't think all is lost and with the way Kromer is talked about he sounds like a solid teacher who can probably get across to Webb. The WCO alone is gonna help the OL, even Jason just agreed to that. Adding a LG will make him better, another thing Jason has agreed with. Everytime someone mentions another possibility at OT you come up with the same old Webb shit, so if you think you are annoyed then you will understand why we get annoyed with you. This is my last response to your Webb crab. Its like a chatty Kathy Doll, just keep pulling the sting and the same crap comes out of your mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 U are aware when we hired tice he was considered 1 of the best OL coaches in the NFL. And before u spout that crap how his lines sucked up there trying doing the research. I have for the years he was there OL coach(97-01) those lines were quite good. At least 2 pro bowlers every yr except in 01 when he had 1. But i know u will find away to diminish those facts. It is what your good at Ya, I went a little overboard there in calling him/the line horrible, I'll admit that, But, and here comes the diminishing part I'm so good at, doing a little more research, look at the line he inherited. The whole left side (Center included) was already entering their 4th year together and the 3rd year of the same RT. So it's not like he had to really teach these guys up or anything. After Randal McDaniel, one of the greatest of all time, left his lines proceeded to give up 35 and 45 sacks....Some Bears like numbers. Continuity is a word you hear a lot when it comes to the OL and his lines really already had that. But once again, I went overboard, and I mean that...I'm human Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Everytime someone mentions another possibility at OT you come up with the same old Webb shit, so if you think you are annoyed then you will understand why we get annoyed with you. This is my last response to your Webb crab. Its like a chatty Kathy Doll, just keep pulling the sting and the same crap comes out of your mouth. I'm specifically talking about the putting words in my mouth as the shit that is getting highly annoying to me....I don't know how many times I have to say I think he was average with the ability to be above average/good. I've never once called him good or amazing like you and twig are saying. THAT is whats annoying to me. Like AZ pointed out, you're looking to far into it when I have clearly said I believe he was average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 I'm specifically talking about the putting words in my mouth as the shit that is getting highly annoying to me....I don't know how many times I have to say I think he was average with the ability to be above average/good. I've never once called him good or amazing like you and twig are saying. THAT is whats annoying to me. Like AZ pointed out, you're looking to far into it when I have clearly said I believe he was average. I have never put any words in your mouth, go back and read all my posts. Here is something you mentioned in one of your posts from a few days ago.(Maybe not "really really good" but good? Yes. Th) Those words came from your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 I recorded all the Bear games this year and Webb did get better, but being better doesnt make you good. (When are you going to start the M. Webb fan club) sounds like you have another prospect for the club. Keep looking I am sure you can find a couple more. I take that as you saying I called him good, and I'm sure thats not the only time you said something like that. I have never put any words in your mouth, go back and read all my posts. Here is something you mentioned in one of your posts from a few days ago.(Maybe not "really really good" but good? Yes. Th) Those words came from your post. How about you quote that post so I can see the context. It was probably me saying he CAN be good which is exactly what I've been saying this whole time. He was average last year with the potential to above average/good next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 I take that as you saying I called him good, and I'm sure thats not the only time you said something like that. How about you quote that post so I can see the context. It was probably me saying he CAN be good which is exactly what I've been saying this whole time. He was average last year with the potential to above average/good next year. Maybe not "really really good" but good? Yes. Those numbers I posted can confirm that....I don't wanna say he's as good as or better than Albert because that just sounds dirty but those numbers are there. Alberts 09 year, the year the article was touting, he was 25. Webb last year was 24. It was also Alberts 2nd year at LT. So once again if his pressures stay around the same he'll have produced better totals at nearly the same age and the same year at LT....His penalty total could also be better and to elaborate on the last numbers I threw out there for his 3 year total of penalties, Albert had 6 in 13 games. Webb? 7 in 16. Once again it just sounds dirty to say he's better than Albert so I'm not gonna say that, but if continues to play like he did this year I do believe he very well could be on par with him. Does this bring any memories back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Ok, I see that post but look what it was in response too. Twig said I think Webb is gonna be really really good and I responded with what you said. So you're taking that out of context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Ok, I see that post but look what it was in response too. Twig said I think Webb is gonna be really really good and I responded with what you said. So you're taking that out of context. U keep saying he was average last yr. I swear ur not watching the game. Even pff said below avg and don't give me this crap about possible different game plan or something cuz that same thing can literally be said about every single player in the NFL. Fact is he was below avg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Ya, I went a little overboard there in calling him/the line horrible, I'll admit that, But, and here comes the diminishing part I'm so good at, doing a little more research, look at the line he inherited. The whole left side (Center included) was already entering their 4th year together and the 3rd year of the same RT. So it's not like he had to really teach these guys up or anything. After Randal McDaniel, one of the greatest of all time, left his lines proceeded to give up 35 and 45 sacks....Some Bears like numbers. Continuity is a word you hear a lot when it comes to the OL and his lines really already had that. But once again, I went overboard, and I mean that...I'm human Go back and check again. He did not inherit matt birk. Tice started being oline coach in 97 and birk was drafted in 98. Nice try. Fact still remains that tice was considered a great oline coach. He comes here and fails. Kromer is a good oline coach but there's nothing that says he wont stunt webbs growth. Its completely possible. I hope I'm wrong about webb but i doubt i am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 U keep saying he was average last yr. I swear ur not watching the game. Even pff said below avg and don't give me this crap about possible different game plan or something cuz that same thing can literally be said about every single player in the NFL. Fact is he was below avg But his pass protection was slightly above average if we're using PFF..... And that's what he gets bashed at the most. Yup it can be said for every other player in the league, and in the right situation is true. That line doesn't really help your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 U keep saying he was average last yr. I swear ur not watching the game. Even pff said below avg and don't give me this crap about possible different game plan or something cuz that same thing can literally be said about every single player in the NFL. Fact is he was below avg PFF's official stance is that his rating of -.2 is considered average. I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Go back and check again. He did not inherit matt birk. Tice started being oline coach in 97 and birk was drafted in 98. Nice try. Fact still remains that tice was considered a great oline coach. He comes here and fails. Kromer is a good oline coach but there's nothing that says he wont stunt webbs growth. Its completely possible. I hope I'm wrong about webb but i doubt i am Who's first year was in Tice's 4th year...When they gave up 35 sacks, a number at (09), near(12 with 38 sacks), or above (11 w/ 23).....Look I already said I was wrong for calling him horrible but from what I can tell he's not "great". I just think it's silly to "doubt" that he won't grow under a guy who's been touted to get the best out of his players. But this is getting retarded, I'm done...I'm not gonna argue about personal opinion over the next 50 days.... I'm done talking about Webb until some new news comes out about him....My thoughts are out there and it's obvious neither of our opinions are gonna change so there's no point in continuing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 PFF's official stance is that his rating of -.2 is considered average. I think... Lastly...this is correct, kinda silly that a negative rating, no matter how miniscule (and it was miniscule), though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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