Lovie Trestman

[Alaskan Grizzly]

What does everyone think of Manning playing on 2 bum ankles? I know Peyton is elite, but to me that's besides the point.

 

To me, if a player is cleared medically to play, he should play.

 

The question should be asked, who is Manning's back up and how well does he run the offense in his absence? Are they (Broncos) playing for playoff positioning vs just getting in the playoffs? Or because they want to just beat the Chiefs? I agree, to an extent, if a player is cleared to play he should play. But there are exceptions already out there (Vick in Philly and Schaub in Houston) where the backups are doing a better job, so they are listed "day to day" or not playing..... or whatever creative excuse they come up with to keep the backup playing.

 

Anyhow, during the game against the Lions the announcer "Moose" Johnson noted that Jay was having trouble moving during half time warmups. I saw the same thing and wondered, as did Johnson, why not allow McCown to play the second half? As Johnson would go on to say later, McCown has not played in such a manner that the staff should question his ability in sustaining the game (if not win it). Couldn't have agreed more.

[Mongo3451]

Ball moved after his leg hit... No?

That's irrelevant to the rule. It has to be controlled all the way to the ground. The key part was the was the out of bounds line, as the ball was moving between that time period.

[scs787]

The question should be asked, who is Manning's back up and how well does he run the offense in his absence? Are they (Broncos) playing for playoff positioning vs just getting in the playoffs? Or because they want to just beat the Chiefs? I agree, to an extent, if a player is cleared to play he should play. But there are exceptions already out there (Vick in Philly and Schaub in Houston) where the backups are doing a better job, so they are listed "day to day" or not playing..... or whatever creative excuse they come up with to keep the backup playing.

 

Anyhow, during the game against the Lions the announcer "Moose" Johnson noted that Jay was having trouble moving during half time warmups. I saw the same thing and wondered, as did Johnson, why not allow McCown to play the second half? As Johnson would go on to say later, McCown has not played in such a manner that the staff should question his ability in sustaining the game (if not win it). Couldn't have agreed more.

 

I seem to recall some people on this board liking Brock Osweiler, though he's only thrown 7 balls in his 2 years. He was a 2nd round pick.

 

They are a game behind the Chiefs in both the division and overall in the AFC. They don't beat the Chiefs they probably don't get a bye in the playoffs.

 

Not sure which direction you're going in those questions.

 

I do agree that McCown probably should have been brought in sometime after the half. I do somewhat understand the reasoning behind leaving him in though since he was still making some good throws.

[madlithuanian]

Budget.

 

I'm probably just recalling old rules...

 

That's irrelevant to the rule. It has to be controlled all the way to the ground. The key part was the was the out of bounds line, as the ball was moving between that time period.

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I seem to recall some people on this board liking Brock Osweiler, though he's only thrown 7 balls in his 2 years. He was a 2nd round pick.

 

They are a game behind the Chiefs in both the division and overall in the AFC. They don't beat the Chiefs they probably don't get a bye in the playoffs.

 

Not sure which direction you're going in those questions.

 

Well you answered the question about how well Osweiller can run the offense in Manning's absence. The answer is 'unknown'. Not the same issue in Chicago. As far as playing for a bye in the playoffs versus being in the playoffs, I would ask Manning if he thinks its worth his long term health to decide that answer. Since they (Denver) are probably going to be in the playoffs regardless of how they do against KC, then if I were advising him the option it would be to sit. But being the NFL, its a business, they (KC) are a rival, they are doing well....then Manning probably plays.

 

Chicago was playing for 1st place in the division and a playoff spot so having Cutler start, if he was able, made sense. However it was apparent pretty early that he couldn't sustain it. ..... Instead you put your backup in a difficult place (with only two mins to play and down by 8) to produce. Would have been nice for him to at least have the opportunity to come in and get some of the kinks worked out before being put in that predicament.

 

 

 

[scs787]

Well you answered the question about how well Osweiller can run the offense in Manning's absence. The answer is 'unknown'. Not the same issue in Chicago. As far as playing for a bye in the playoffs versus being in the playoffs, I would ask Manning if he thinks its worth his long term health to decide that answer. Since they (Denver) are probably going to be in the playoffs regardless of how they do against KC, then if I were advising him the option it would be to sit. But being the NFL, its a business, they (KC) are a rival, they are doing well....then Manning probably plays.

 

Chicago was playing for 1st place in the division and a playoff spot so having Cutler start, if he was able, made sense. However it was apparent pretty early that he couldn't sustain it. ..... Instead you put your backup in a difficult place (with only two mins to play and down by 8) to produce. Would have been nice for him to at least have the opportunity to come in and get some of the kinks worked out before being put in that predicament.

 

They still spent a 2nd round pick on him though.

 

I wouldn't say it was apparent he wasn't able to sustain it early...I'm rewatching the game now (NFL networks NFL rewind, is a nice quick way to rewatch a game) and I'm at the half right now and he still has looked pretty sharp. Rewatched the INT for the first time and it was a tough break, had Suh not gotten a hand on it at the line of scrimmage, which I think is just tough luck(he quite literally wasn't even in the line of sight for Cutler), then he hits an open Bennett in the end zone. So that's tough luck on 3 TD throws from Jay, the tip ball at the line of scrimmage, and the 2 drops by Alshon.

 

3rd quarter he's still playing well IMO....I do think, in the face of pressure, that he rushed a pass or 2, but back them up with good throws.

 

I don't think it became truly apparent until that last throw he made, at that point, Trestman made the move. Still don't know why Marshall slowed up on the play prior to his last throw. IMO that's another tough luck play.

 

In the end, after rewatching the game, if those 4 plays I talked about go right Jay would be sitting around 300-350 yards with 4-5 TDs(Marshall might have taken that play to the house) with a 60% competition%

 

['TD']

There were 4 or 5 Lions there. That was not going to be a TD to Bennett. It was at best going to be incomplete and most likely a pick. The one play was not a drop by Jeffery was not a drop by definition. Marshall had no chance at that ball.

 

http://thebiglead.com/2013/11/10/jay-cutle...y-deandre-levy/

 

You can see the INT from 2 different angles there. The second you can see Levy following Cutler's eyes as he was staring down Bennett. The first you can see how many Lions were there.

 

I couldn't find the other plays, but didn't look that hard. There's no reason to argue with someone who thought Webb did well last year, as we see football differently.

[scs787]

There were 4 or 5 Lions there. That was not going to be a TD to Bennett. It was at best going to be incomplete and most likely a pick. The one play was not a drop by Jeffery was not a drop by definition. Marshall had no chance at that ball.

 

http://thebiglead.com/2013/11/10/jay-cutle...y-deandre-levy/

 

You can see the INT from 2 different angles there. The second you can see Levy following Cutler's eyes as he was staring down Bennett. The first you can see how many Lions were there.

 

I couldn't find the other plays, but didn't look that hard. There's no reason to argue with someone who thought Webb did well last year, as we see football differently.

 

There were 4 or 5 players in the area where the ball was tipped. Had to swap computers so I'm rockin a really old one ATM and it was taking forever, but I've got the game recorded and watching it frame by frame and I believe that very well could have been a touchdown. Bennett was open. At the very least it might have been thrown behind him and the Bears get a field goal that would have been the difference..That's a pass you make all day, you can't think about a Dlineman getting his big paw up there and changing the flight of the ball.

 

The Marshall play I'm still iffy on since I don't know what the play can was. Marshall, even after looking back, slows up on the play a bit, side stepping almost, and he was just a step away from making that grab.

 

Nfl network is showing it again right now, the Marshall play will happen around 1145. Record it or watch it and you'll see what I mean.

 

And whatever on that last little comment. Excuse me for using an analytical database that our gm uses to base my decision on a player.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

There were 4 or 5 Lions there. That was not going to be a TD to Bennett. It was at best going to be incomplete and most likely a pick. The one play was not a drop by Jeffery was not a drop by definition. Marshall had no chance at that ball.

 

http://thebiglead.com/2013/11/10/jay-cutle...y-deandre-levy/

 

You can see the INT from 2 different angles there. The second you can see Levy following Cutler's eyes as he was staring down Bennett. The first you can see how many Lions were there.

 

Nice link. It does indeed break down the play and allow you to see what transpired. I remember during the game saying that if there four guys in the area of Bennett, someone somewhere had to be open. Sure enough at the top is Forte waiting for what would have been an easy screen play and score. Marshall and Jeffery are locked on their coverage so they could of blocked those players. The only real free player looked to be the SLB (or NB cant quite tell) which easily could have been blocked by Long.

 

This play epitomizes the bad issues (see habits) with Cutler and his gunslinger mentality. Thusly his propensity to the turnover, especially in the red zone.

 

['TD']

And whatever on that last little comment. Excuse me for using an analytical database that our gm uses to base my decision on a player.

 

You're right, I shouldn't have thrown the last comment in. We do tend to have different views in general. I should have just stated what I did and left it at that.

[Lucky Luciano]

Careful there. The definition of "catch" in the NFL rulebook is not the same as the one you probably learned growing up.

 

you mean when football was a sport and not an exhibition?

 

 

Nope. That is most certainly not the end of it.

 

then riddle me this... what is the definition of a catch in the open field? control of the ball and making a football move? if the receiver drops the ball after that move whether by being hit by a player or simply lets the ball fall to the ground is that not considered a fumble?

 

if after making that football move a receiver is tackled and fumbles the ball AFTER his knee is down who gets possession of the ball if the defense recovers?

 

OR, if he caught the pass on his own 10 yard line and runs it 89 yards and is tackled and the ball comes out after his knee is down, is that an incomplete pass?

 

on a running play... if the ball crosses the goal line but the runner's knee was down prior to that is that a touchdown?

 

if a runner breaks the plane of the goal line with the ball and fumbles it before he is down or the play is over is that a touchdown?

 

What's funny is, the rules are so ridiculously verbose and complicated so as to ensure that the refs do NOT decide. That's the entire reason the whole "complete the process" and "complete the catch" verbiage was put in the rulebook. It's to ensure an official doesn't say, "Yeah, but did you see it move after he hit the ground and rolled?" It hand-cuffs the officials into making a call based explicitly on the rules.

 

i think i can strongly disagree with that. if you do not believe this is true you are wrong and here is why...

 

WHO is making the judgement calls if not the refs? there are not just a few bad calls a season but hundreds of them. is not every play determined in some form by an official even one in the replay booth? are these rules so complicated and general that they can be interpreted both ways and still be right? i believe they are. example:

 

the rules for offensive holding in today's football are the biggest unknown maybe in sports history. it is nearly ALWAYS determined not by the rules, but by each individual official who 'can' in a whim (or an under the table payday) completely influence the outcome of any game OR influence the final score (gambling spread).

 

the reason for this is that on every single play nearly EVERY offensive lineman could be called for holding because the rules have changed so much over the last 20 + years. in the previous hundred years or so no offensive lineman was able to use his hands to grab onto a defensive player or his jersey, hook him or basically shove him to the ground etc.

 

thus you have now in existence a rule so poorly written with such poor intent that it is not possible to go by the written rule in todays NFL to make fair judgements.

 

2. roughing the passer -another rule to be interpreted by each individual ref. each individual referee in every game makes judgment calls causing a wide variety of his definition at the time for a penalty or non penalty call.

[jason]

There were 4 or 5 Lions there. That was not going to be a TD to Bennett. It was at best going to be incomplete and most likely a pick. The one play was not a drop by Jeffery was not a drop by definition. Marshall had no chance at that ball.

 

http://thebiglead.com/2013/11/10/jay-cutle...y-deandre-levy/

 

You can see the INT from 2 different angles there. The second you can see Levy following Cutler's eyes as he was staring down Bennett. The first you can see how many Lions were there.

 

I couldn't find the other plays, but didn't look that hard. There's no reason to argue with someone who thought Webb did well last year, as we see football differently.

 

Even from the link you provided - thanks! - I don't think your case is unequivocal. Cutler's arm is ridiculous and there could have been a window between players, because Bennett was most certainly open. Levy was following his eyes, but Levy is not the guy who batted the ball. And it certainly wouldn't be the first time a QB, much less a strong-armed one, threaded the needle.

 

It's just one of those things. A bad break. The DLineman got his hand on the ball and batted it. Tough play.

[jason]

you mean when football was a sport and not an exhibition?

 

Yes. It's definitely changed over the years.

 

then riddle me this... what is the definition of a catch in the open field? control of the ball and making a football move? if the receiver drops the ball after that move whether by being hit by a player or simply lets the ball fall to the ground is that not considered a fumble?

 

if after making that football move a receiver is tackled and fumbles the ball AFTER his knee is down who gets possession of the ball if the defense recovers?

 

OR, if he caught the pass on his own 10 yard line and runs it 89 yards and is tackled and the ball comes out after his knee is down, is that an incomplete pass?

 

on a running play... if the ball crosses the goal line but the runner's knee was down prior to that is that a touchdown?

 

if a runner breaks the plane of the goal line with the ball and fumbles it before he is down or the play is over is that a touchdown?

 

I can actually speak to this quite intelligently. A catch in the open field is the same as on the sideline. The process has to be completed. If nobody is around a receiver, he goes up, catches it in the air, lands, rolls, and the ball comes out, it's an incomplete pass. If the receiver gets hit and loses the ball, it depends on whether he made a football move after the catch. If yes, it's a fumble. If no, it's an incomplete pass. Even if he catches it, lands on his feet while in possession of the ball, and gets hit immediately, that's going to be an incomplete pass 99 out of 100 times. There's an axiom in officiating circles that covers this concept: "No cheap turnovers." In other words, when in doubt, the officials don't want to give the ball to the defense if the offense could possibly have still been completing a catch, even if it's the last 1% out of 100% of what makes a catch. That's going to be incomplete.

 

As for getting hit after his knee hits the ground, it's about the sequence. If it's catch, knee, hit by opponent, ball comes loose, all in quick succession, it's incomplete. If it's catch, knee, delay, hit by opponent, ball comes loose, the runner was down when contacted. Same goes for the 89 yard example you gave. The 89 yards constitute a football move, so it's definitely a catch. At that point the catch portion of it is no longer in play. It's just a matter of whether or not the player lost control of the ball before being down.

 

Last but not least, if the runner breaks the plane of the GL with a millimeter of the ball, it doesn't matter what happens afterwards. It's a touchdown.

 

i think i can strongly disagree with that. if you do not believe this is true you are wrong and here is why...

 

WHO is making the judgement calls if not the refs? there are not just a few bad calls a season but hundreds of them. is not every play determined in some form by an official even one in the replay booth? are these rules so complicated and general that they can be interpreted both ways and still be right? i believe they are. example:

 

the rules for offensive holding in today's football are the biggest unknown maybe in sports history. it is nearly ALWAYS determined not by the rules, but by each individual official who 'can' in a whim (or an under the table payday) completely influence the outcome of any game OR influence the final score (gambling spread).

 

the reason for this is that on every single play nearly EVERY offensive lineman could be called for holding because the rules have changed so much over the last 20 + years. in the previous hundred years or so no offensive lineman was able to use his hands to grab onto a defensive player or his jersey, hook him or basically shove him to the ground etc.

 

thus you have now in existence a rule so poorly written with such poor intent that it is not possible to go by the written rule in todays NFL to make fair judgements.

 

2. roughing the passer -another rule to be interpreted by each individual ref. each individual referee in every game makes judgment calls causing a wide variety of his definition at the time for a penalty or non penalty call.

 

Sorry, but I have MUCH more insight into this from the top down, and I can tell you that you're wrong. Yes, the officials are there to make the judgement calls, and there will always be plenty during a game. Roughing the passer is certainly one of those calls. Same for holding. Incidentally, the holding call is almost always judged at that level based upon three things: 1) Point of attack, 2) Material affect, 3) The defender's feet. If the hold is not at the point of attack, or does not have a material affect (i.e. it's a hold by definition but not enough to stop the defender from moving/pursuing), or does not take the defender's feet away (i.e. make him look clumsy in an attempt to get to the ball carrier) then it's not going to get called.

 

But the rules as they are written, specifically the verbose requirement for a completed catch, are explicitly written to take out as much of the officials' judgement as possible. I know this for a fact. When you say there are hundreds of bad calls per year, I know that you don't really understand what you are talking about. You PERCEIVE that many, but each of the 7 officials is graded on every single play of the game. Each one they are given a grade. I've seen a mock up of the rating sheet. If there were that many bad calls, the turnover of officials in the NFL would be ridiculous. As it is now, the turnover is like molasses in January.

 

As for instant replay, you're wrong there as well. Every play is not reviewed. In fact, there are specific rules in the rule book that dictate which plays can be reviewed.

[Lucky Luciano]

I can actually speak to this quite intelligently. A catch in the open field is the same as on the sideline. The process has to be completed. If nobody is around a receiver, he goes up, catches it in the air, lands, rolls, and the ball comes out, it's an incomplete pass.

 

first: the endzone is a completely different entity from the rest of the field. IF a receiver catches the ball and tucks it in he has possession of the ball and THAT is a football move. when a knee hits the turf in the endzone that is the end of the play as long as he has possession at the point in time his knee is down. otherwise the results are at opposites between a pass reception or a running play. it can't be both ways and if it IS then it is just as i said... the rules are slanted to give the refs the leeway to call the play any way they want to and the call will always be correct.

 

If the receiver gets hit and loses the ball, it depends on whether he made a football move after the catch. If yes, it's a fumble. If no, it's an incomplete pass. Even if he catches it, lands on his feet while in possession of the ball, and gets hit immediately, that's going to be an incomplete pass 99 out of 100 times.

 

isn't this exactly what i have been saying? if he makes a football move after the catch and falls or is tackled and his knee was down prior to the ball coming out it is a completed pass. if that completed pass is in the endzone the play is OVER and it's a touchdown.

 

it's no different than the megatron call against the lions. i don't care what anybody says, that was a touchdown and we should have lost that game. if that play would have been called a touchdown there is nobody on the planet would have thought twice about it being the correct call. thus they can go to the extreme edge of the rule and call the play any way it suits them and still be correct.

 

There's an axiom in officiating circles that covers this concept: "No cheap turnovers." In other words, when in doubt, the officials don't want to give the ball to the defense if the offense could possibly have still been completing a catch, even if it's the last 1% out of 100% of what makes a catch. That's going to be incomplete.

 

again as i said before and you seem to agree by your statement, the refs are in a position to effect the results in a game because the rules are so poorly built for interpretation.

 

As for getting hit after his knee hits the ground, it's about the sequence. If it's catch, knee, hit by opponent, ball comes loose, all in quick succession, it's incomplete. If it's catch, knee, delay, hit by opponent, ball comes loose, the runner was down when contacted. Same goes for the 89 yard example you gave. The 89 yards constitute a football move, so it's definitely a catch. At that point the catch portion of it is no longer in play. It's just a matter of whether or not the player lost control of the ball before being down.

 

ok, again you are stating that the rule you are refering to is a complete judgement call because the rules are so vague. what exactly does it say in your rule book for the amount of time that constitutes a "delay"? i'm sorry, but if he pulls the ball in and has control and both feet are down it is a catch.

 

Last but not least, if the runner breaks the plane of the GL with a millimeter of the ball, it doesn't matter what happens afterwards. It's a touchdown.

 

exactly correct. so why is it NOT a touchdown when a receiver who has possession of the ball with both feet on the ground in the endzone? the running play as stated is a TD as long as he has possession and the ball is in the endzone. he doesn't even HAVE to have any feet on the ground.

 

Sorry, but I have MUCH more insight into this from the top down, and I can tell you that you're wrong. Yes, the officials are there to make the judgement calls, and there will always be plenty during a game. Roughing the passer is certainly one of those calls. Same for holding. Incidentally, the holding call is almost always judged at that level based upon three things: 1) Point of attack, 2) Material affect, 3) The defender's feet. If the hold is not at the point of attack, or does not have a material affect (i.e. it's a hold by definition but not enough to stop the defender from moving/pursuing), or does not take the defender's feet away (i.e. make him look clumsy in an attempt to get to the ball carrier) then it's not going to get called.

 

well then you need to go into great detail about what these 3 requirement are and how they are used to determine a hold. because what i am seeing on game day is certainly not any yardstick to determine one hold from another other than complete blatant infractions. i have seen many questionable calls on our TE's and tackles that another player got away with even worse hold and never got a flag.

 

let me ask you, when an OT has his arm hooked around the neck of a defender taking an outside rush is that not impeding his ability to move or pursue? how many times over the years has peppers been nearly raped in pursuit of the qb with no call?

 

how many plays have you seen a guard grabbing the inside of a defenders jersey and pivoting him out of the hole or holding him while the defender tries to move laterally to pursue the ball?

 

i could sit down if i had game tapes and go over nearly every single down and find at least one hold that is going on that could (should) be called

 

so if it is not a judgement call or badly written rules or both then how can you explain it? ever heard of a rookie getting flagged for calls a darling veteran gets away with every play? did you watch any of those bad calls on jeffries last season for holding or pushing off? or maybe how cutler can get decapitated with no flag but the darling tom brady or brett favre gets jostled by the wind and a flag comes out?

 

so do the officials just interpret the rules differently for each player or team? jeezus did you watch the lions game? cutler should have had at least 2-3 major roughing the passer calls from those thugs farley and suh.

 

But the rules as they are written, specifically the verbose requirement for a completed catch, are explicitly written to take out as much of the officials' judgement as possible. I know this for a fact. When you say there are hundreds of bad calls per year, I know that you don't really understand what you are talking about. You PERCEIVE that many, but each of the 7 officials is graded on every single play of the game. Each one they are given a grade. I've seen a mock up of the rating sheet. If there were that many bad calls, the turnover of officials in the NFL would be ridiculous. As it is now, the turnover is like molasses in January.

 

As for instant replay, you're wrong there as well. Every play is not reviewed. In fact, there are specific rules in the rule book that dictate which plays can be reviewed.

 

yes i do say there are hundreds of bad calls or non-calls and all of these equal the same in the flow of the game. a bad holding call is a drive stopper along with just about any of these bad calls. just for the record i have been watching professional football probably longer than you have been alive. so yea, i do understand the game of football at least a little (by the way, i have figured it out that every play isn't reviewed. it took me decades to do it but i finally got it.)

 

as far as offical grading... it is basically a joke. exactly how many NFL officials have been fired over the last 40 years? give me a link.

 

who is doing the grading of these guys? is it the people who MAKE these crap rules or are they graded by OTHER officials or former officials or is it all three?

 

or could it possibly be that as i STATED the rules are so poorly written and can be interpreted any way an official wants to interpret it and still be RIGHT? hmmmmmm, one has to wonder.

 

[selection7]

I don't think it became truly apparent until that last throw he made, at that point, Trestman made the move. Still don't know why Marshall slowed up on the play prior to his last throw. IMO that's another tough luck play.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. WRs are taught to never slow down unless they are going to sit in the soft spot of a zone. That pass was mostly likely perfect but Marshall slowed up because he felt the safety coming on (that safety would not have gotten there in time though). It saved Marshall from being hit, but may have been the difference in the game.

 

My memory fails me now, but I know I saw a receiver slow up earlier in the game too, causing an incompletion. I think it was Jeffery or Bennett and the pass still would have been low but catchable rather than out of his reach.

[jason]

first: the endzone is a completely different entity from the rest of the field. IF a receiver catches the ball and tucks it in he has possession of the ball and THAT is a football move. when a knee hits the turf in the endzone that is the end of the play as long as he has possession at the point in time his knee is down. otherwise the results are at opposites between a pass reception or a running play. it can't be both ways and if it IS then it is just as i said... the rules are slanted to give the refs the leeway to call the play any way they want to and the call will always be correct.

 

isn't this exactly what i have been saying? if he makes a football move after the catch and falls or is tackled and his knee was down prior to the ball coming out it is a completed pass. if that completed pass is in the endzone the play is OVER and it's a touchdown.

 

it's no different than the megatron call against the lions. i don't care what anybody says, that was a touchdown and we should have lost that game. if that play would have been called a touchdown there is nobody on the planet would have thought twice about it being the correct call. thus they can go to the extreme edge of the rule and call the play any way it suits them and still be correct.

 

again as i said before and you seem to agree by your statement, the refs are in a position to effect the results in a game because the rules are so poorly built for interpretation.

 

ok, again you are stating that the rule you are refering to is a complete judgement call because the rules are so vague. what exactly does it say in your rule book for the amount of time that constitutes a "delay"? i'm sorry, but if he pulls the ball in and has control and both feet are down it is a catch.

 

exactly correct. so why is it NOT a touchdown when a receiver who has possession of the ball with both feet on the ground in the endzone? the running play as stated is a TD as long as he has possession and the ball is in the endzone. he doesn't even HAVE to have any feet on the ground.

 

well then you need to go into great detail about what these 3 requirement are and how they are used to determine a hold. because what i am seeing on game day is certainly not any yardstick to determine one hold from another other than complete blatant infractions. i have seen many questionable calls on our TE's and tackles that another player got away with even worse hold and never got a flag.

 

let me ask you, when an OT has his arm hooked around the neck of a defender taking an outside rush is that not impeding his ability to move or pursue? how many times over the years has peppers been nearly raped in pursuit of the qb with no call?

 

how many plays have you seen a guard grabbing the inside of a defenders jersey and pivoting him out of the hole or holding him while the defender tries to move laterally to pursue the ball?

 

i could sit down if i had game tapes and go over nearly every single down and find at least one hold that is going on that could (should) be called

 

so if it is not a judgement call or badly written rules or both then how can you explain it? ever heard of a rookie getting flagged for calls a darling veteran gets away with every play? did you watch any of those bad calls on jeffries last season for holding or pushing off? or maybe how cutler can get decapitated with no flag but the darling tom brady or brett favre gets jostled by the wind and a flag comes out?

 

so do the officials just interpret the rules differently for each player or team? jeezus did you watch the lions game? cutler should have had at least 2-3 major roughing the passer calls from those thugs farley and suh.

 

yes i do say there are hundreds of bad calls or non-calls and all of these equal the same in the flow of the game. a bad holding call is a drive stopper along with just about any of these bad calls. just for the record i have been watching professional football probably longer than you have been alive. so yea, i do understand the game of football at least a little (by the way, i have figured it out that every play isn't reviewed. it took me decades to do it but i finally got it.)

 

as far as offical grading... it is basically a joke. exactly how many NFL officials have been fired over the last 40 years? give me a link.

 

who is doing the grading of these guys? is it the people who MAKE these crap rules or are they graded by OTHER officials or former officials or is it all three?

 

or could it possibly be that as i STATED the rules are so poorly written and can be interpreted any way an official wants to interpret it and still be RIGHT? hmmmmmm, one has to wonder.

 

That post was too disjointed to reply in kind.

 

Long story short, you're literally the only person I've seen complain about this. It was an incompletion by NFL rules, rules that are far from vague, and the rules are written in such verbose manner as to help take the judgement away from the officials in regards to a catch. The fact that you speak of the rule as being vague just shows you haven't read it and don't understand it. Making a football move and completing the catch are in some ways connected, which you apparently are failing to see. In regards to a catch, if the player is going to the ground it doesn't matter what he does other than holding on to the ball. If during the process of going to the ground and landing/rolling/etc. he doesn't hold on to the ball and show firm control throughout, it's incomplete. Period. You prove yourself even less knowledgeable when you bring up the Alshon plays last year. I clearly pointed out in those threads that he was doing something that is specifically categorized as offensive pass interference. It's coached, taught, scrutinized by officials, categorized, and even explained in the offseason so the players and coaches know what the officials look for in an OPI call. He pushed off and extended his arms. It's a tell-tale sign and one of the acceptable categorizations of OPI by officials when being evaluated/graded. Also, you don't have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to the grading system, the evaluations, the competency of the officials, or the amount of work they have put in to be where they are.

 

I know it's tough to view the game without fandom getting in the way. Even for me. And yes, I think officials get calls wrong (mostly holding calls). But by and large, those NFL officials get 99% of the calls right, are graded excruciatingly closely, and know more about football rules - particularly the signs and intricacies of breaking rules (there is literally an entire book about the finer points of holding) - than you could ever hope to know.

[Lucky Luciano]

That post was too disjointed to reply in kind.

 

or maybe to difficult to back up your opinions with real facts?

 

Long story short, you're literally the only person I've seen complain about this.

 

then i guess since i am the only person 'complaining' about it it has no merit? great statement. i assume that questions or observations are only legitimate to you if the crowd voices them?

 

It was an incompletion by NFL rules, rules that are far from vague, and the rules are written in such verbose manner as to help take the judgement away from the officials in regards to a catch. The fact that you speak of the rule as being vague just shows you haven't read it and don't understand it.

 

i don't have a rule book and would like to see your copy of the NFL rules in this regard. so, why don't you post these "verbose" rules and enlighten the world with your interpretations of them.

 

Making a football move and completing the catch are in some ways connected, which you apparently are failing to see. In regards to a catch, if the player is going to the ground it doesn't matter what he does other than holding on to the ball. If during the process of going to the ground and landing/rolling/etc. he doesn't hold on to the ball and show firm control throughout, it's incomplete. Period.

 

oh i think i understand how these rules are 'supposed' to work. i just question the validity of what constitutes a catch in some instances and what constitutes the end of the play. obviously your linear thinking can't seem to grasp the concept that maybe the rule/s or interpretations of those rules can and should be questioned.

 

You prove yourself even less knowledgeable when you bring up the Alshon plays last year. I clearly pointed out in those threads that he was doing something that is specifically categorized as offensive pass interference. It's coached, taught, scrutinized by officials, categorized, and even explained in the offseason so the players and coaches know what the officials look for in an OPI call. He pushed off and extended his arms.

 

oh, so if YOU pointed it out it must be written in stone? maybe you should change your screen name to Moses.

 

just so i got this straight... you have never seen a play where a veteran top tier player makes the same infraction as a rookie and gets away with it while the rookie or some nobody player gets the flag? even the numbsculls in the booth comment on it occasionally. whether you believe it or not it is interpreted ON THE FIELD by officials who either don't know the rules, the rules are in place where he can be right any way he calls it or they flag/don't flag the infraction at their discretion to keep the flow of the game in which case they can possibly control the games outcome or it's score.

 

It's a tell-tale sign and one of the acceptable categorizations of OPI by officials when being evaluated/graded. Also, you don't have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to the grading system, the evaluations, the competency of the officials, or the amount of work they have put in to be where they are.

 

spoken like a true cog in the machine. so, in your estimation there are no bad officials because they are.... officials?

 

i am curious though, what do they do with the official's grading system you seem to love so much? they (whoever 'they' are) grade them and then what? you never did answer the question of how many NFL officials have been fired since 1960 for incompetence? any at all? what happens with a low graded official and where do the lower graded officials go? banished to officiating games in buffalo in january?

 

I know it's tough to view the game without fandom getting in the way. Even for me. And yes, I think officials get calls wrong (mostly holding calls). But by and large, those NFL officials get 99% of the calls right, are graded excruciatingly closely, and know more about football rules - particularly the signs and intricacies of breaking rules (there is literally an entire book about the finer points of holding) - than you could ever hope to know.

 

here is where you diverge into the abyss. i am not some paranoid homer that thinks everyone is out to get the bears. everything i have stated is in regards to the entire NFL. that includes calls made or NOT made by officials for ANY team in the NFL in any given game.

 

what i WANT is what is best for the sport - NFL football - where it is not designed to be determined by a single individual using grey area rule interpretations. in other words they need to sit down and clean up the mess they have with clear dialog on the interpretation of all of their key rules.

[bowlingtwig]

or maybe to difficult to back up your opinions with real facts?

 

 

 

then i guess since i am the only person 'complaining' about it it has no merit? great statement. i assume that questions or observations are only legitimate to you if the crowd voices them?

 

 

 

i don't have a rule book and would like to see your copy of the NFL rules in this regard. so, why don't you post these "verbose" rules and enlighten the world with your interpretations of them.

 

 

 

oh i think i understand how these rules are 'supposed' to work. i just question the validity of what constitutes a catch in some instances and what constitutes the end of the play. obviously your linear thinking can't seem to grasp the concept that maybe the rule/s or interpretations of those rules can and should be questioned.

 

 

 

oh, so if YOU pointed it out it must be written in stone? maybe you should change your screen name to Moses.

 

just so i got this straight... you have never seen a play where a veteran top tier player makes the same infraction as a rookie and gets away with it while the rookie or some nobody player gets the flag? even the numbsculls in the booth comment on it occasionally. whether you believe it or not it is interpreted ON THE FIELD by officials who either don't know the rules, the rules are in place where he can be right any way he calls it or they flag/don't flag the infraction at their discretion to keep the flow of the game in which case they can possibly control the games outcome or it's score.

 

 

 

spoken like a true cog in the machine. so, in your estimation there are no bad officials because they are.... officials?

 

i am curious though, what do they do with the official's grading system you seem to love so much? they (whoever 'they' are) grade them and then what? you never did answer the question of how many NFL officials have been fired since 1960 for incompetence? any at all? what happens with a low graded official and where do the lower graded officials go? banished to officiating games in buffalo in january?

 

 

 

here is where you diverge into the abyss. i am not some paranoid homer that thinks everyone is out to get the bears. everything i have stated is in regards to the entire NFL. that includes calls made or NOT made by officials for ANY team in the NFL in any given game.

 

what i WANT is what is best for the sport - NFL football - where it is not designed to be determined by a single individual using grey area rule interpretations. in other words they need to sit down and clean up the mess they have with clear dialog on the interpretation of all of their key rules.

You want clear diologue. Come on do we really have to fight this when that clearly isn't possible. Some rules do have grey areas. There is no sport in this land thats perfectly cut and dry and we will never see that day either. Just my thought

[Lucky Luciano]

You want clear diologue. Come on do we really have to fight this when that clearly isn't possible. Some rules do have grey areas. There is no sport in this land thats perfectly cut and dry and we will never see that day either. Just my thought

 

yes, what i want is clear dialog and it is possible within reason to do so. i have stated this in the past that nearly all holding calls are a wild interpretation by the officials. one gets called and one doesn't with no clarity as to why.

 

i understand that there are judgement calls all the time by officials and that is the nature of sports but... there has to be some clear "diologue" as to the why and what for of some of these calls.

 

30 years ago if you were an offensive lineman you never grabbed a jersey and held on or it was a holding penalty. you wrapped your arm around a defensive players neck it was a holding penalty. it was reasonably easy to call.

 

now there is no rhyme or reason to it unless it is a flagrant penalty. one play an offensive lineman puts the defender in a headlock and no flag. the next play with the same circumstances it's a holding call. are there degrees of your arm around the neck of a defender? how about grabbing a defender by the arm or shoulder to slow him down on his way to the qb? i have seen it called and not called. where is the consistency of officiating?

 

hell in the bears game i watched a bear player virtually get tackled from behind with no call on the LOS.

[bowlingtwig]

yes, what i want is clear dialog and it is possible within reason to do so. i have stated this in the past that nearly all holding calls are a wild interpretation by the officials. one gets called and one doesn't with no clarity as to why.

 

i understand that there are judgement calls all the time by officials and that is the nature of sports but... there has to be some clear "diologue" as to the why and what for of some of these calls.

 

30 years ago if you were an offensive lineman you never grabbed a jersey and held on or it was a holding penalty. you wrapped your arm around a defensive players neck it was a holding penalty. it was reasonably easy to call.

 

now there is no rhyme or reason to it unless it is a flagrant penalty. one play an offensive lineman puts the defender in a headlock and no flag. the next play with the same circumstances it's a holding call. are there degrees of your arm around the neck of a defender? how about grabbing a defender by the arm or shoulder to slow him down on his way to the qb? i have seen it called and not called. where is the consistency of officiating?

 

hell in the bears game i watched a bear player virtually get tackled from behind with no call on the LOS.

While I agree it would be nice and seems reasonable its never going to happen. I quite complaining because it was a waste of breath

[jason]

or maybe to difficult to back up your opinions with real facts?

 

No, it's quite literally too disjointed to reply to every.single.sentence the way you have. But I'll do it this time for you.

 

then i guess since i am the only person 'complaining' about it it has no merit? great statement. i assume that questions or observations are only legitimate to you if the crowd voices them?

 

i don't have a rule book and would like to see your copy of the NFL rules in this regard. so, why don't you post these "verbose" rules and enlighten the world with your interpretations of them.

 

oh i think i understand how these rules are 'supposed' to work. i just question the validity of what constitutes a catch in some instances and what constitutes the end of the play. obviously your linear thinking can't seem to grasp the concept that maybe the rule/s or interpretations of those rules can and should be questioned.

 

oh, so if YOU pointed it out it must be written in stone? maybe you should change your screen name to Moses.

 

The point to all this is that I'm an official, have been for several years, have talked with multiple Super Bowl referees down to the beginning rookie in pee-wee ball about officiating philosophy, and it's just something that most people truly understand. PM me your address and I'd be glad to try to round up a digital version of the rulebook for you. It's an ugly read.

 

just so i got this straight... you have never seen a play where a veteran top tier player makes the same infraction as a rookie and gets away with it while the rookie or some nobody player gets the flag? even the numbsculls in the booth comment on it occasionally. whether you believe it or not it is interpreted ON THE FIELD by officials who either don't know the rules, the rules are in place where he can be right any way he calls it or they flag/don't flag the infraction at their discretion to keep the flow of the game in which case they can possibly control the games outcome or it's score.

 

It happens, but I don't believe it happens as often as you believe it does. If we were talking basketball, where interaction is almost always one-on-one and without the chaos of football, I'd be more inclined to agree.

 

spoken like a true cog in the machine. so, in your estimation there are no bad officials because they are.... officials?

 

Sorry, but that's just the way it is. I'm not a cog in the machine in terms of the categories of OPI and DPI. It is PRECISELY what officials are coached, trained, and told to categorize. If they can't put it into one of the categories then they are supposed to leave the call alone. It just so happens that Alshon's OPI calls last year were exactly the definition of one of the categories. I found a handy link that serves as a primer on the subject.

 

i am curious though, what do they do with the official's grading system you seem to love so much? they (whoever 'they' are) grade them and then what? you never did answer the question of how many NFL officials have been fired since 1960 for incompetence? any at all? what happens with a low graded official and where do the lower graded officials go? banished to officiating games in buffalo in january?

 

here is where you diverge into the abyss. i am not some paranoid homer that thinks everyone is out to get the bears. everything i have stated is in regards to the entire NFL. that includes calls made or NOT made by officials for ANY team in the NFL in any given game.

 

what i WANT is what is best for the sport - NFL football - where it is not designed to be determined by a single individual using grey area rule interpretations. in other words they need to sit down and clean up the mess they have with clear dialog on the interpretation of all of their key rules.

 

I'd love to answer this question, if I could. And it's a valid question. I don't have the hiring/firing record of the NFL. I'm not sure anyone could get it. What I do know is there is minimal changeover. That could be interpreted a variety of ways. But there are always people chomping at the bit to take their spots. So if they weren't doing excellently, why wouldn't the NFL get an aspiring official currently working SEC, B12, B10, PAC12 games to replace a poor official? The answer is, the NFL would get the best person possible. Further, I'm quite sure that when an NFL official is let go, most of the time he's allowed to pretend he's retiring or something similar. Why throw the guy under the bus? So it'd probably never say "fired for incompetence" or "completely dicked up the Chicago vs. Detroit game."

[Lucky Luciano]

The point to all this is that I'm an official, have been for several years, have talked with multiple Super Bowl referees down to the beginning rookie in pee-wee ball about officiating philosophy, and it's just something that most people truly understand. PM me your address and I'd be glad to try to round up a digital version of the rulebook for you. It's an ugly read.

 

i am not sure how to PM anyone. can i go into your profile and hit message or what do i do? i would appreciate a copy of what you have.

 

Sorry, but that's just the way it is. I'm not a cog in the machine in terms of the categories of OPI and DPI. It is PRECISELY what officials are coached, trained, and told to categorize. If they can't put it into one of the categories then they are supposed to leave the call alone. It just so happens that Alshon's OPI calls last year were exactly the definition of one of the categories. I found a handy link that serves as a primer on the subject.

 

first... i am not even saying that jeffries did or did not push off. that was never the point. what i was trying to convey was that other players i have seen do the same or even more flagrant fouls and no flag. that to me is the crux of officiating problems in the NFL... consistency.

 

are the rules written with escape clauses for interpretation or area's that any play could be called either way (thus a grey area) and still be correct according to the rule book? are the officials on the field then interpreting this information correctly according to the intent of the rule or CAN they influence a game by using this grey area on individual calls and throw or not throw a flag?

 

worse case scenario, if either is the case then you are opening up pandora's box in the sense that any games outcome and score 'can' be influenced or determined by an official who is not necessarily breaking the rules implemented by the NFL.

 

with a billion dollars in gambling money going on in any given year there is certainly the risk of payoffs or bribes in this respect. to shave points for a spread is just one concern. the difference between a TD or a FG in a game can be a huge payday if someone wants to use this to beat a spread or overall points.

 

so to the point... like the laws of our land they must be concise and clearly stated and most importantly they must be the same for everyone every time.

 

this is where my concern lies. in any game consistency of the written rule and the rules clear interpretation is paramount.

 

example, one play a hold is called. the next play it could be the same infraction but NOT called. even reading your link (thanks) it appears to be reasonably clear for receiver or db's. yet i am seeing guys getting held on the field and flagged and the next series not being called. the same is true for push-offs by the receiver.

 

a while ago they implemented rules to limit DB's from defending against a pass (a bad rule in my opinion). basically the receiver was to be unmolested after 5 yards past the LOS. no hand fighting etc. now it seems they are loosening up these rules (again interpretation by officials?) and allowing more contact downfield. so that leads again to a grey area of what is too much and what isn't to draw a flag.

 

so for me the key is consistency. if the rules that should be enforced kill the flow of the game with penalties then the rules need to be revised and clarified to take out the judgement calls or non-calls by officials whenever possible.

 

one last item... did you watch the panthers pats game? i guess i have never heard of or seen a rule that negated pass interference if it was intercepted and the infraction occurred prior to the INT. that is a new one on me. i was rooting hard for the panthers but that was a BAD call and was similar to the original "tuck rule" in it's lack of any foundation for calling it that way.

[jason]

i am not sure how to PM anyone. can i go into your profile and hit message or what do i do? i would appreciate a copy of what you have.

 

Can you not just click on my user name and then click "send message"?

 

first... i am not even saying that jeffries did or did not push off. that was never the point. what i was trying to convey was that other players i have seen do the same or even more flagrant fouls and no flag. that to me is the crux of officiating problems in the NFL... consistency.

 

Understood. Consistency in this case is very difficult. Too many moving parts. I can assure you, however, that there are literally thousands of conversations every year about the same topic and how to correct it.

 

are the rules written with escape clauses for interpretation or area's that any play could be called either way (thus a grey area) and still be correct according to the rule book? are the officials on the field then interpreting this information correctly according to the intent of the rule or CAN they influence a game by using this grey area on individual calls and throw or not throw a flag?

 

worse case scenario, if either is the case then you are opening up pandora's box in the sense that any games outcome and score 'can' be influenced or determined by an official who is not necessarily breaking the rules implemented by the NFL.

 

with a billion dollars in gambling money going on in any given year there is certainly the risk of payoffs or bribes in this respect. to shave points for a spread is just one concern. the difference between a TD or a FG in a game can be a huge payday if someone wants to use this to beat a spread or overall points.

 

so to the point... like the laws of our land they must be concise and clearly stated and most importantly they must be the same for everyone every time.

 

this is where my concern lies. in any game consistency of the written rule and the rules clear interpretation is paramount.

 

I understand what you're saying about the gambling money, etc. I think you've probably noticed over the years that there have been more and more officials' conferences on the field. Most of the time that's an assurance of proper rule and philosophy interpretation. With seven sets of eyes on the field, there is a good chance that two sets are on crucial plays most of the time. And there is an even better chance that the non-calling official would mind his own business unless he was pretty damn sure - most say 110% sure - that the call needed to be discussed/reversed. It'd be really difficult to get two guys involved in a conspiracy like that with as large as the stage is. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's very unlikely.

 

example, one play a hold is called. the next play it could be the same infraction but NOT called. even reading your link (thanks) it appears to be reasonably clear for receiver or db's. yet i am seeing guys getting held on the field and flagged and the next series not being called. the same is true for push-offs by the receiver.

 

a while ago they implemented rules to limit DB's from defending against a pass (a bad rule in my opinion). basically the receiver was to be unmolested after 5 yards past the LOS. no hand fighting etc. now it seems they are loosening up these rules (again interpretation by officials?) and allowing more contact downfield. so that leads again to a grey area of what is too much and what isn't to draw a flag.

 

so for me the key is consistency. if the rules that should be enforced kill the flow of the game with penalties then the rules need to be revised and clarified to take out the judgement calls or non-calls by officials whenever possible.

 

Holding is just a difficult thing to really get. It gets called when it's an ugly hold and it's very pertinent to the play. A late, correct flag is better than an early, incorrect flag. I'm sure the officials are looking at the play, processing it, saying to themselves, "Did it affect the play?" and then making the decision. As for the illegal contact, a variation of that goes from the NFL to pee-wee. But, again, it's only going to get called when it's paramount. WR gets chucked, the QB looks to his second read, throws it successfully for a gain? No call. WR gets chucked, the QB pumps, pulls it back, then gets sacked? More likely to see a flag. I don't think it's possible to take judgement out of the game.

 

one last item... did you watch the panthers pats game? i guess i have never heard of or seen a rule that negated pass interference if it was intercepted and the infraction occurred prior to the INT. that is a new one on me. i was rooting hard for the panthers but that was a BAD call and was similar to the original "tuck rule" in it's lack of any foundation for calling it that way.

 

Sadly, I did not. I did, however, see the last play and have replied in detail in the other thread about officiating.