Hester's value just took another hit...

[jason]

What does Hester not playing WR because Trestman didn't want him to have to do with the defense or special teams?

 

Peace

It's in the general theme of this thread. Just because Trestman didn't want him as a WR doesn't necessarily make it a good move, nor does his offensive improvement absolve him of the decline in D and ST. In fact, it directly relates to the decision making in regards to Hester (i. e. This thread).

[Connorbear]

It's in the general theme of this thread. Just because Trestman didn't want him as a WR doesn't necessarily make it a good move, nor does his offensive improvement absolve him of the decline in D and ST. In fact, it directly relates to the decision making in regards to Hester (i. e. This thread).

I'll trust Trestman's decisions on offense over you. I agree he's going to be held accountable for the decline in defense and special teams if he doesn't right the ship.

 

Trestman saw no value in Hester playing offense and obviously felt his skills at special teams have declined enough to move on special teams.

 

Peace

[Stinger226]

I'll trust Trestman's decisions on offense over you. I agree he's going to be held accountable for the decline in defense and special teams if he doesn't right the ship.

 

Trestman saw no value in Hester playing offense and obviously felt his skills at special teams have declined enough to move on special teams.

 

Peace

I agree, he is not the player he use to be. The key to this discussion is how well who they replace him with.If he does well the conversation will be over with, if he is not very good, we will here from Jason all season.

[jason]

I'll trust Trestman's decisions on offense over you. I agree he's going to be held accountable for the decline in defense and special teams if he doesn't right the ship.

 

Trestman saw no value in Hester playing offense and obviously felt his skills at special teams have declined enough to move on special teams.

 

Peace

 

I trust Trestman's decisions on offense over me too. I think everyone should, obviously. But your last sentence is where the problem is...we can't trust his opinion on special teams yet.

[jason]

I agree, he is not the player he use to be. The key to this discussion is how well who they replace him with.If he does well the conversation will be over with, if he is not very good, we will here from Jason all season.

 

Actually, it's more of a combination of who replaces Hester and what he does in Atlanta. If Hester is similar to what he was this past season for the Bears, then it was a bad idea to replace him unless his replacement does similarly or better at a discounted price.

[Connorbear]

I trust Trestman's decisions on offense over me too. I think everyone should, obviously. But your last sentence is where the problem is...we can't trust his opinion on special teams yet.

That's why I said this - "I agree he's going to be held accountable for the decline in defense and special teams if he doesn't right the ship."

 

Peace

[jason]

That's why I said this - "I agree he's going to be held accountable for the decline in defense and special teams if he doesn't right the ship."

 

Peace

 

Which goes to the heart of this entire thread (i.e. should the Bears have kept Hester). Knowing what we know now (i.e. $3M per year), it makes much more sense and virtually nobody thinks he should have been kept at that figure, but at the time of this thread's start, we didn't know the financial decisions and it was a special teams related decision (i.e. your statement about "accountability").

 

If you don't trust his coaching prowess yet in regards to the D/ST, what made you think it was such a good decision for them to basically cut Hester? Was it just your recollection of the games? Because, based on his stats last year, he wasn't much different than preceding years. His punt return avg. was a bit down, but his kickoff return avg. was up significantly. I just think people expect him to remain a superhero for too long. Eleven kick returns in his first two years is an impossible standard to live up to. Devin Hester was the only guy to average over 27 on kickoffs and over 14 on punts last year. Add that to the other stats I listed in the Devin Hester main thread, where he's top 5 or so in just about everything, and I just don't understand where someone with your opinion could support it.

[Connorbear]

Which goes to the heart of this entire thread (i.e. should the Bears have kept Hester). Knowing what we know now (i.e. $3M per year), it makes much more sense and virtually nobody thinks he should have been kept at that figure, but at the time of this thread's start, we didn't know the financial decisions and it was a special teams related decision (i.e. your statement about "accountability").

 

If you don't trust his coaching prowess yet in regards to the D/ST, what made you think it was such a good decision for them to basically cut Hester? Was it just your recollection of the games? Because, based on his stats last year, he wasn't much different than preceding years. His punt return avg. was a bit down, but his kickoff return avg. was up significantly. I just think people expect him to remain a superhero for too long. Eleven kick returns in his first two years is an impossible standard to live up to. Devin Hester was the only guy to average over 27 on kickoffs and over 14 on punts last year. Add that to the other stats I listed in the Devin Hester main thread, where he's top 5 or so in just about everything, and I just don't understand where someone with your opinion could support it.

Because I don't believe a 32 year-old kick returner/punt returner that is above average (we agree he's not great anymore) is worth any more than the veteran minimum given the fact that kick returns are being legislated out of the game.

 

Peace

[jason]

Because I don't believe a 32 year-old kick returner/punt returner that is above average (we agree he's not great anymore) is worth any more than the veteran minimum given the fact that kick returns are being legislated out of the game.

 

Peace

 

If you had started there, by calling him above average, then this entire conversation is moot. Your previous posts made it seem like you didn't think he was good anymore. He's good, maybe even great, just not super-human like he used to be.

[madlithuanian]

Looks like that proposal was shot down...so Hester get the exta 5 yards.

 

So, his value didn't go down other than age and cost.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/...offs-to-the-40/

 

[jason]

Looks like that proposal was shot down...so Hester get the exta 5 yards.

 

So, his value didn't go down other than age and cost.

 

Only time will tell at this point. But I fear this will be just like Urlacher. Had the Bears even negotiated, they could have probably kept their guy, and their guy would have undoubtedly helped the team. Maybe Hester agrees to 1.75-2 with performance escalators with the Bears? We will never know, just like the Urlacher situation, and according to Melton that's how it was with him too. The team wasn't actually there to bargain or negotiate. If the Bears do poorly on ST this year, and the Falcons do well, I won't be the only one that notices.

[madlithuanian]

I think you're fear, while reasonable, is a bit much.

 

Urlacher was a leader. Hester was not. He will be missed. There's not way he won't be. He's the greatest return man in NFL history. There will be 3-4 games that he will probably make a difference. However, given the upgrade of our D, and the continued upward tick of the O, that should easily make up for those few games that Hester made a significant contribution. Hell, if our coverage team just does better, the impact may be more noticeable. We can move the ball down the field...we jsut couldn't stop anyone.

 

I am fuly expecting Atlanta's ST to do better than us. I just think we'll be middle of the road. That's all we need. We need decent field position that is better than the 20 yard line, and we need our coverage to be much much better. That happens, and we'll be fine.

 

It's apparent that the team didn't want to work deals with Melton, Hester or Urlacher. It's their perogative. They did with Tillman. So it's not like they just cat off pieces. They are picking and choosing. I easily see why they didn't want Melton. I understand why they didn't want Url. And I understand why they didn't want Hester. I do agree with you that I would have liked to have seen Url come in for one last hurrah...that one I think the team made a mistake. Not a grievous one, but a mistake. Url didn't have enough int he tank. If he did, he'd have been elsewhere. Melton has too many question marks. Is he over the injury? Is he a problem citizen getting into bar fights? Was his pro bowl year a flash in the pan? Hester, simply was too much money for a one trick pony the team thought. Would I like to see him back their fielding punts and kicks? Yes. But, I get why he isn't. The guy is always a move or 2 from breaking it...and also a move or 2 from getting stopped for a big loss. It's feast or famine. I hope he breaks the overall record for returns with Atlanta. I just don't think he'll do it by 5 or more. I think he busts 1 or 2.

 

I love Hester. Always will. He's said some stupid things, but he's always retreacted and has always been thankful of Chicago fans. Url, on the other hand, just comes off whiny and pissy. I love Url, and always will. But I need s little more time removed to fully enjoy him as a post-Bear. And I need him to stop making knee-jerk whiny comments every time and aged former Lovie Smith Bear doesn't get thrown boatloads of cash from the Bears. I think is about 2 years, that'll be the case. He'll move on from it, and so will I. Then, I can re-appreciate him. I alwasy will appreciate what he did ont he field, but off...man, there's not much to like.

 

 

 

Only time will tell at this point. But I fear this will be just like Urlacher. Had the Bears even negotiated, they could have probably kept their guy, and their guy would have undoubtedly helped the team. Maybe Hester agrees to 1.75-2 with performance escalators with the Bears? We will never know, just like the Urlacher situation, and according to Melton that's how it was with him too. The team wasn't actually there to bargain or negotiate. If the Bears do poorly on ST this year, and the Falcons do well, I won't be the only one that notices.

 

[adam]

In the end it will come down to who our returner is next year and how he equates to Hester in terms of contract and expected performance. We can already expect a cheaper option but hopefully it is comparable performance.

[jason]

It's apparent that the team didn't want to work deals with Melton, Hester or Urlacher. It's their perogative. They did with Tillman. So it's not like they just cat off pieces. They are picking and choosing. I easily see why they didn't want Melton. I understand why they didn't want Url. And I understand why they didn't want Hester. I do agree with you that I would have liked to have seen Url come in for one last hurrah...that one I think the team made a mistake. Not a grievous one, but a mistake. Url didn't have enough int he tank. If he did, he'd have been elsewhere. Melton has too many question marks. Is he over the injury? Is he a problem citizen getting into bar fights? Was his pro bowl year a flash in the pan? Hester, simply was too much money for a one trick pony the team thought. Would I like to see him back their fielding punts and kicks? Yes. But, I get why he isn't. The guy is always a move or 2 from breaking it...and also a move or 2 from getting stopped for a big loss. It's feast or famine. I hope he breaks the overall record for returns with Atlanta. I just don't think he'll do it by 5 or more. I think he busts 1 or 2.

 

Regarding this part that I cut from your post...

 

The problem I have with it is that the new Bears management has shown a propensity to not negotiate. Hester definitely was asking for too much money, but that's how negotiation works. One high, one low, reach a middle somewhere. I bet Hester could have been had for close to $2M, maybe less, if the Bears had even tried negotiating.

 

I think the Urlacher thing was a much bigger mistake, because he was the face of the franchise. It was sort of disgraceful how they handled that. Urlacher may not have been the posterboy for fan relation, but he was still the #1 guy. And he unequivocally would have helped the defense last year from being the worst Bears rush defense ever. Hester is not as significant in terms of the contract and negotiation, but it's the same M.O., and it will also affect the Bears negatively.

 

[madlithuanian]

We honestly don't know the whole truth. Maybe management felt both Hester and Urlacher were bad seeds. Maybe they were poison in the locker room. We know Hester said he tookplays off. He wanted Lovie. Urlacher was also pissed at losing Lovie Smith. He made no bones about being irritated. It might be management simply had enough from both. Trestman said there was no other value in Hester other than returns. On that, I trust him. Also, given I saw it with my own eyes for too many years. For just a return guy, I'm sure there might be some negotiation. But Hester was looking for far more. Maybe they simply knew it was futile from early talks...we simply don't know the entire story. Hester left on a good note. So that tell me, there was some mutual respect given. or at least, he learned from his PR guy not to be a jacka$$ like Url was. Sometimes parties just want to move on... Both Hester and the Bears.

 

As I said earlier, I do agree Urlacher was a mistake and poorly played. Disgraceful, no. But poor, yes. Urlacher was the one who chose to make it look disgraceful. He could have helped. Probably not enough to make a difference. And who could gurantee he'd be able to stay on the field. If it were me (and you), I'd have made a better attempt at retaining him last year for one last hurrah. But I wouldn't have broken the bank either.

 

In all this, I think Emery has seen the error in his ways and he handled Tillman perfectly, and handled Hester fairly. I also think they handled Melton fairly. Melton had minimal history, and had too many question marks. None of those guys were under contract, so the Bears didn't have to do a thing. They wished Hester the best and retained Tillman. One out of 2 ain't bad.

 

And really...Url has now been gone for a year plus. If I felt lacking Lacher was the only reason we didn't win the Super Bowl, I'd feel differently. It wasn't. Therefore, it matters not and because of that, we probably have a higher draft pick. We can't turn back time as much as Cher would like to. To me, all I expect out of a mistake is learning. I see that in how they handled Tillman and Hester. You may not agree with their assessment of Hester. But he was treated with all due respect.

 

 

Regarding this part that I cut from your post...

 

The problem I have with it is that the new Bears management has shown a propensity to not negotiate. Hester definitely was asking for too much money, but that's how negotiation works. One high, one low, reach a middle somewhere. I bet Hester could have been had for close to $2M, maybe less, if the Bears had even tried negotiating.

 

I think the Urlacher thing was a much bigger mistake, because he was the face of the franchise. It was sort of disgraceful how they handled that. Urlacher may not have been the posterboy for fan relation, but he was still the #1 guy. And he unequivocally would have helped the defense last year from being the worst Bears rush defense ever. Hester is not as significant in terms of the contract and negotiation, but it's the same M.O., and it will also affect the Bears negatively.

 

[Connorbear]

If you had started there, by calling him above average, then this entire conversation is moot. Your previous posts made it seem like you didn't think he was good anymore. He's good, maybe even great, just not super-human like he used to be.

I never said he wasn't good anymore. I said he wasn't worth more than the veteran minimum - there is a difference.

 

Peace

[jason]

I never said he wasn't good anymore. I said he wasn't worth more than the veteran minimum - there is a difference.

 

Peace

 

More than once in the other thread you said Hester was "past his prime." Now, unless you were being 100% literal, that saying typically carries with it a certain amount of negativity. When someone says that someone is past their prime, it typically also means "getting old" or "over the hill." It's fairly idiomatic in the Americanized English language as something negative. If you didn't mean it that way, and simply meant it as "not quite as good as the superstar who set the NFL on fire," which would be uncommon usage, then this was simply a huge misunderstanding.

[Connorbear]

More than once in the other thread you said Hester was "past his prime." Now, unless you were being 100% literal, that saying typically carries with it a certain amount of negativity. When someone says that someone is past their prime, it typically also means "getting old" or "over the hill." It's fairly idiomatic in the Americanized English language as something negative. If you didn't mean it that way, and simply meant it as "not quite as good as the superstar who set the NFL on fire," which would be uncommon usage, then this was simply a huge misunderstanding.

When I say past his prime, I meant he was no longer the superstar he once was. I still think he is a viable return man but the way the position has been devalued I don't see him worth more than the vet minimum. The only returner I see being worth more that vet minimum is one who is above average and can reliably play another position or Hester in his prime.

 

Peace

[Mongo3451]

More than once in the other thread you said Hester was "past his prime." Now, unless you were being 100% literal, that saying typically carries with it a certain amount of negativity. When someone says that someone is past their prime, it typically also means "getting old" or "over the hill." It's fairly idiomatic in the Americanized English language as something negative. If you didn't mean it that way, and simply meant it as "not quite as good as the superstar who set the NFL on fire," which would be uncommon usage, then this was simply a huge misunderstanding.

Damn dude, you dug deep to twist his words on that one...

[jason]

Damn dude, you dug deep to twist his words on that one...

 

No twisting at all. Past his prime/peak is a common idiom.

[Mongo3451]

No twisting at all. Past his prime/peak is a common idiom.

Meaning not at peak or as good as they once were. It does not mean, they are no longer any good. You falsely placed those words to promote your dead horse argument. You would have pulled the same card had you been on the other side of the debate. How many times can you challenge people's grasp of the English language then be a hypocrite when it turns on you?

[jason]

Meaning not at peak or as good as they once were. It does not mean, they are no longer any good. You falsely placed those words to promote your dead horse argument. You would have pulled the same card had you been on the other side of the debate. How many times can you challenge people's grasp of the English language then be a hypocrite when it turns on you?

 

I honestly have NEVER heard anyone use that phrase to mean simply slightly deteriorated. Whenever that was the intention it was simply said as such. I've lived all over the U.S., from coast to coast and even in Chicago, and whenever I've heard an American person say that idiom, it has always had the double meaning as in the definition below:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/past+one's+prime

 

Synonym: "Over the hill"

 

It ain't like I edited the definition on their website. Like I said before, it was a big misunderstanding.

[Lucky Luciano]

I honestly have NEVER heard anyone use that phrase to mean simply slightly deteriorated. Whenever that was the intention it was simply said as such. I've lived all over the U.S., from coast to coast and even in Chicago, and whenever I've heard an American person say that idiom, it has always had the double meaning as in the definition below:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/past+one's+prime

 

Synonym: "Over the hill"

 

It ain't like I edited the definition on their website. Like I said before, it was a big misunderstanding.

 

look, past your prime in professional sports means this...

 

you are age-wise and/or talent wise on the decline from the very best you will be 95% of the time from that point on. does it always mean you won't have more success or even a good declining career from that point on? no. a prime example could be a QB.

 

but it does usually mean that due to age or injury your body can never recover the ability to do the things it had prior to that point. your body does not heal or regenerate the elasticity and top end refined muscle mass it had at a younger age. thus your skills decline. this is especially true with anyone who uses their legs as a means of making a living in the high end sports arena. gravity is your worst enemy.

 

but the point of this all is that hester HAS declined in his abilities. i have watched every game he has ever played in as a pro and he flat out has lost a step. in fact he has been deteriorating over the last 2+ years. he does NOT have that same burst of speed to get around the edge into an open field and even more importantly he can't generate enough top-end speed to outrun a fast defender. i have seen him be caught from behind more than once over this period. 4-7 years ago if he broke free there wasn't more than 1, maybe 2, players in the entire nfl who could possibly catch him.

 

so this led to his release and in my opinion unless hester would have signed for a million dollars or less he is a liability to this franchises health. maybe even then as we would have to cull our roster by releasing a younger player who could have a contributing career in this franchise. in other words i don't believe hester has enough left to be any major difference in whether this franchise makes it to the playoffs or beyond.

 

he is a one trick pony who will only get slower every season and to believe he would gain any mental advantage due to age and experience is ludicrous. in fact he actually may be getting worse in that respect because he does not have the physical ability to do what he has done in the past and it is proving to be a mental roadblock.